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Seller Conveys Mineral Rights... Yes or No ?

I went on a listing yesterday.  Everything was going just fine.  My suggested pricing was accepted.  I also suggested that today's buyer... perhaps more than ever... might be in need of having some or all of their closing costs paid by the seller.  That was fine, too.

We walked through the home, and I made various suggestions about making the home more ready for showings.  I suggested thinning out the closets of items of clothing that the seller will not be wearing over the next four to six months.  I suggested that since she was not going to be wearing her winter clothes, and sooner or later she was going to have to pack them... she might as well pack them up for moving now... and make the closets look larger. 

All was going well... everything I suggested was being accepted... until my seller brought up the subject of "mineral rights." 

A large natural gas field has been discovered here in Fort Worth.  For the past year to eighteen months... much talk has taken place about signing over "royalty rigts" for the building lot people's homes are build on.  Many have done this, and most owners who put their homes up for sale... are insisting that they keep the mineral rights... and not convey them to the new buyer.

This... can cause problems... because most buyers who purchase... expect those same mineral rights to remain with the property.  They feel they are paying for the home... and want all the rights pertinent to the home... to convey with it.  It makes sense to me.

Of course... my seller wanted to retain her own mineral rights... and not convey them to the new buyers.  We chatted about it, with my suggesting that it would make the home more saleable if she, the seller, also conveyed her mineral rights along with her title.

She again insisted they not convey, and started becoming more than a tad belligerent.

So... I asked my seller if I could tell her a few stories.  Yes said... "sure !"

I asked her to pretend that she was going to be making an offer on her next home.  I suggested that we offer the seller an amount what was within 3% of the seller' asking price, and that the seller deliver posession within thirty days.  I suggested to her that the seller would probably accept an offer like that.  She seemed pleased.

I then asked her:   What if the seller... gave you everything you asked for in your offer... but was insisting on just one very simple thing? 

What if... the seller was absolutely insisting that... after she moved in... that the seller be able to retain his own key to her home... and whenever he happened to be in the neighborhood... he would be allowed to park his car... use his key... and walk in to her home and use her bathroom.

Her eyes opened wider than I had ever seen them.  She stammered, and then said... "What !  He wants to still be able to stop, use his own key, and walk into MY home and use MY bathroom ?  Why in the world would I agree to let him do that ?  It's my bathroom... and no... he cannot continue to use it.

I then asked her:  What was the difference between her seller continuing to use her bathroom after he no longer owned the home... and  her continuing to reap the royalties on the natural gas lease... under HIS home... after she sold him the house and he owned it ?

She sat silently.  At first she looked puzzled.  Then... slowly... a smile came to her face.  She said... "Well... no, he can't still use my bathroom... and ok, I get the point, I won't insist on keeping the mineral rights after I move."  She laughed... she told me I made my point... and she signed an addendum agreeing to convey the mineral rights to the new buyer.  Whew !

How do YOU handle the subject of both seller and buyer both wanting to retain mineral rights ?

Comment balloon 107 commentsKaren Anne Stone • April 14 2008 12:15PM

Comments

The only gas that I'm aware of under the ground in this area...is septic system gas...believe me no one wants the rights to that!

Great story Karen...you can really think on your feet!

Posted by Joan Mirantz, Realtor, GRI, CBR, SRES - Concord New Hampshire (Homequest Real Estate) over 10 years ago
I like the point you made to the seller.  Thank you for the post.
Posted by Melody Botting, You Deserve The Best (Broker Associate PenFed Realty) over 10 years ago
In my area, it is not uncommon to have the mineral rights separate from the other rights. Way back when, the railroad companies didn't sell the mineral rights when they sold off the land rights use. And water rights are controlled by the state. It is pretty unusual to have someone concerned about it though.
Posted by Sarah Nopp over 10 years ago
We don't have to deal with that up here.... the only times mineral rights are conveyed is the ocassional mining claim or very old original homestead.  The State of Alaska and/or the Federal Gov't retains the mineral rights to 90+/- of all land sold in Alaska.
Posted by Jesse & Kathy Clifton, Retired (Jesse Clifton & Associates, REALTORS®) over 10 years ago
Joan:  I am betting that the amount of gas to be derived from those tanks probably depends on what everyone had for dinner the previous night.  Ouch !  Joan... thanks for your kind words.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Melody:  You are quite welcome... and thank you so much for your kind comment.  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Well Karen I'm pretty impressed at how you handled her.........with kit gloves I might had....I also loved how you asked her if you could 'tell he a story'.....you're one helluva mean story telling machine!
Posted by Liz Moras Migic, Chilliwack, British Columbia - Realtor over 10 years ago

Sarah:  This newly discovered natural gas field is called the Barnett Shale, and is thought to be one of the largest new finds in the entire country.  Out where there is open land... with is pretty much all around Fort Worth... newly-drilled gas wells can be seen just about everywhere.

As far as being concerned... the newspapers and some of the attorneys have been beating the bushes, so to speak, and sending all the individual home-owners letters concerning their mineral rights.  Now, I am not talking about mineral rights for vast areas of land, but one individual letter for each separately-constructed home on a small lot on a typical city block.  All of this seemed pretty goofy to me, too.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Jesse:  I am guessing you don't have to deal with that... because of the vast open areas up in Alaska.  I had never heard of this here either... until this recent Barnett Shale discovery.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Liz:  What a nice thing to say... and yes... I think it went well.  Liz, I think I get so much more accomplished with kid gloves and stories.  I tell these really goofy stories... the points of which are so very obvious, then ask my really dumb closing question... and the answer usually shows the seller (or buyer) understands my point and agrees with me.  That... of course... ends the debate quite nicely, and all remain friends.  Thank you so much for your kind words... I really appreciate them.  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Wow -- that was a smooth way to get your point across, diffuse the situation.... I like your style.
Posted by Retha Arrabal, GRI, Associate Broker (Doug Ashley Realtors, LLC) over 10 years ago
Retha:  Thank you so much for your kind words... I appreciate them.  I think so much more can be gained by telling stories that make my point, and then ending them with asking just the right questions.  Thanks again, Retha.  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
That was really well done.  I sometimes still get really flustered when a buyer or seller asks for the truly absurd.  I tend to expect people to be at least somewhat sensible - however, I am learning that it doesn't always work that way. 
Posted by Ruthmarie Hicks (Keller Williams NY Realty - 120 Bloomingdale Road #101, White Plains NY 10605) over 10 years ago
Kaen- I think you handled that very well and I don't think I would have done anything different.  Great Job!
Posted by Laura Karambelas, Realtor - Downers Grove (Baird & Warner Downers Grove) over 10 years ago

 

So, it is a fact that the mineral rights under the homes there with that lot size have no value?  If you had the buyer for a similar property that was not going to convey the mineral rights  how would you explain that.  And if they were going to convey, would that be portrayed to the buyer as a positive thing. Why?

Posted by Paul Howard, Paul Howard Realty, 856-488-8444 (Paul Howard, Broker, Paul Howard Realty 856-488-8444) over 10 years ago
Laura:  Thanks so much for your kind words.  I think it all went very well, and the seller seems very satisfied.  Thanks for commenting.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Paul:  As I said in my post... it does not make sense for both the buyer and the seller to insist on keeping the mineral rights to a piece of property this small.  If all sellers convey the mineral rights along with the property... the problem is solved.  Of course, when buyers or sellers get absurd... the same kind of problems and confusion can arise as when those who write comments also get absurd.  You have a nice day now, Paul.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago

Ruthmarie:  Thank you so much for your kind comment on my closing technique with my seller.  It is very easy to get flustered under those conditions, but I have found that giving silly examples like I did above, and then asking simple questions as a follow-up... work very well with situations like this. 

After a while... situations like these actually become fun... because they become both so predictable, and so easy to handle.  Take care, Ruthmarie, and thanks again for your kind words.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Karen - Wow, this is the first time I've come across this.  Consider me parked while reading the feedback....
Posted by Jason Sardi, Your Agent for Life (Auto & Home & Life Insurance throughout North Carolina) over 10 years ago

Hi Karen,

Great approach!  Well done.  We administer 1031 exchanges on mineral rights, water rights, oil & gas interests, etc. all the time, but it can get really sticky when its someone's personal residence.

Posted by Bill Exeter, 1031 Tax-Deferred Exchange Expert (Exeter 1031 Exchange Services, LLC) over 10 years ago

Karen Anne, What is underground here can be just a pain -- foundation and septic geology.  If it doesn't work for either, you can't build or are stuck with what you've got.   I like that you used a simple, but fun, example to convey your point. 

It will be interesting to see how Fort Worth handles the use of this new field.

Posted by Elaine Hanson, REALTOR - Topanga, CA Real Estate Agent (Partners Trust Real Estate) over 10 years ago

 

Karen, as a 'closing technique' I get it.  And if the mineral rights have no value it seems great. It isn't obvious to me from your post though that they have no value. I guess it is a legal issue but unless you know the correct answer with legal certainty it seems to me to be walking out on a limb. 


Posted by Paul Howard, Paul Howard Realty, 856-488-8444 (Paul Howard, Broker, Paul Howard Realty 856-488-8444) over 10 years ago
Congratulations on the gold star, Karen!  You handled the situation like a pro!
Posted by Margaret Woda, Maryland Real Estate & Military Relocation (Long & Foster Real Estate, Inc.) over 10 years ago

Jason:  I believe you are parked in a two-hour parking zone.  Ya know, the meter maids around here are pretty strict, so ya better be careful... :)

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Bill:  Yes, things can get very sticky.  Often times, though, even sticky things can turn out well if handled properly.  Thanks for your kind comments...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Elaine:  I have usually found that simple, and usually fun, examples work best for me.  It must be a leftover skill from my nine years of teaching seventh grade... :)  Once I explain their options, most people feel what I have explained does make sense... and the conflict ends up resolved.  Thanks so much for your kind words.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Here most of the mineral rights on most properties were reserved by people a 100 years ago and to this day still are reserved to the benefit of their heirs successors and assigns, so it is for the most part a mute point.
Posted by Alan Brown, 26 Years of Real Estate Experience . (Coldwell Banker Montrose Colorado) over 10 years ago
Paul:  According to the seller's agreement, the royalties have a monthly value of about $40.  I usually don't go out on what might be a precarious limb unless I know it has been properly reinforced.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Margaret:  Thanks for pointing out the gold star.  It wasn't there when I made the last group of comments.  And thanks so much for your kind words.  I've been doing this for awhile... and although "practive doesn't make perfect"... practice usually makes "better."  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago

 

Thanks Karen.  That sits much better with me.  (I can be a little anal about details)

 So, I'm curious about whether the mortgage lien is also a lien on the mineral rights and would they be attached in a foreclosure. 

Posted by Paul Howard, Paul Howard Realty, 856-488-8444 (Paul Howard, Broker, Paul Howard Realty 856-488-8444) over 10 years ago
Alan:  Here we are talking about a 60 x 115 ft residential lot in a neighborhood of about 200 of them.  That is the typical lot size.  The neighborhood has been peppered with mailings from attorneys wanting to act as agents, and has caused much confusion.  So, with the newly-found Barnett Shale gas find here in Fort Worth, the situation has become an issue.  The rights, just like any other, can become the subject of negotiation, and can either be or not be conveyed.  But... if they are not conveyed, this can obviously lessen the value of the property... and bring up an additional item that is subject to negotiation.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Paul:  I am not an attorney, and I do not pretend to practice law... but usually a mortgage can only be a lien on the rights to the property that the owner has title to.  I would guess that if the mineral rights did not belong to the seller, they could not be subject to the lender's lien.  Does that make sense ?  And Alan... you, anal... oh my... I would never have guessed... LOL.  In a foreclosure... I don't know how rights that a seller does not have title to could possible be attached.  It would be like putting a lien on someone else's property.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Karen, I know they can't be attached if the holder of the mineral right is not the mortgagor.  But I'm also not sure if they can be attached if the holder is the mortgagor.  Are they conveyed in a separate document or in the deed conveying the ownership of the property.
Posted by Paul Howard, Paul Howard Realty, 856-488-8444 (Paul Howard, Broker, Paul Howard Realty 856-488-8444) over 10 years ago

Karen Anne, we have the same problem in White County ARkansas.  All of a sudden gas companies have come in, built wells, leased mineral rights and have upset our little apple carts.  People argue over mineral rights on 2 acres!  They want to keep them. 

There's a house for sale with 20 acres with a well already on the 20 acres and more could be built.  The seller, however, says he is keeping the mineral rights.  Why would anyone want to buy it without getting the mineral rights?  The cows on the 20 acres could be scooted off for more wells which you would not benefit from.!

It's a crazy world.  You handled it very well and I may need that speech soon.

Posted by Barbara S. Duncan, GRI, e-PRO, Executive Broker, Searcy AR (RE/MAX Advantage) over 10 years ago

Karen-Anne - Congrats on the gold star!  I think it is  a perfect example of how someone who is truly a professional can ease situations. Although this was about getting someone to be reasonable on a listing....the ability to get the seller to see the other side is a valuable tool during a heated negotiation.  Right now - every negotiation is a draining experience...our prices remain solid, but deals are few and far between and inventory is VERY LOW!!!  Just to get to the point of someone making an offer is like climbing a mountain.  To have $500k deals fall a part over $2000 - is just exhausting - and that's what is happening.  People dig their heels and wont' budge.  It's so irrational, you just want to scream. You would be a master at getting around things like this.

 

 

Posted by Ruthmarie Hicks (Keller Williams NY Realty - 120 Bloomingdale Road #101, White Plains NY 10605) over 10 years ago
Barbara:  Obviously the situation is vastly different on a 20 acre piece of property.  I would guess that not conveying the mineral rights when selling that kind of property would have an incredibly negative effect on the overall value.  The property my homeowner is selling is about .12 acres... just a typical small lot in a typical three-year old neighborhood.  And... please help yourself to my closing techniques.  Be my guest !  And... thank you for your kind comments.  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago

Ruthmarie:  You are being very kind with your compliments.  Thank you.  The ability of being able to negotiate a compromise is a great thing to have.  Early in my career, I had a woman broker/owner who was absolutely brilliant.  Lillian Kahn taught me well... and to this day I thank her for it. 

It sounds like you are in an area where values are very stable, but still... thanks to the current political and economic situations... both buyers and sellers are very, very skittish.  As far as having a $500,000 sale fall apart over $2,000... that is one of the benefits of my being a RE/MAX agent.  If that were the case, and neither buyer nor seller would budge, I would very quickly eat that $2,000... and get the sale closed.  And... on commission decisions like that... the only approval I need... is my own.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Congrats on the feature, kiddo.  Nicely done.  It's not a problem up here in the mitten state.  There might be copper underground, that's about it.
Posted by Karen Webster...Grand Rapids, MI Realtor (5 Star Real Estate, Grand Rapids MI) over 10 years ago
Karen Anne:  I have never heard of such a thing, but will be having lunch with a title attorney next week.  She's one of the best legal minds I've yet to encounter.  Will throw this at her for fun. 
Posted by Chris Ann Cleland, Associate Broker, Bristow, VA (Long and Foster REALTORS®, Gainesville, VA) over 10 years ago

Paul:  I have checked with Alamo Title, who takes care of my closings, and here is the way it is done in Texas. 

If no prior agreement is made in the purchase agreement for the mineral rights to remain with the seller... those mineral rights convey normally as part of the rights contained in the typical warranty deed signed by the seller and conveying title to the property to the buyer.  No additional document is required.

If however, an agreement is made during sale negotiations that the mineral rights will remain with the seller after title transfer... that special provision is written into the warranty deed when title transfers to the buyer.  With that provision being inserted into the warranty deed... no addition document stating the failure of conveyance of the mineral rights from seller to buyer is required.

No remember everyone... many, many things vary from state to state.  Your particular state may work things differently... but the above information... which is true in Texas... came straight directly from Alamo Title... which is a "title company"... and handles closings here in Texas.  We do not have "round-table closings here... and in many instances, the buyer and seller never even meet.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Karen:  Thanks for your kind words... kiddo... LOL.  Natural gas is a whole lot easier to take out of the ground that I imagine copper is.  So Michigan is the mitten state, huh ?  Cute... I like it.  In Ohio, where I was born, we, as you know, are called Buckeyes.  I have always preferred, however, to be called a Buck-ette.  I like the sound of it much better.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago

 

Karen, I appreciate that you are so patient.  I find this an interesting issue.  I wonder how common it might be for the mineral rights to get 'lost'. It is something most people never think about.  If a deed is recorded with no mention of them is it assumed that they conveyed or did not convey.  And, if they didn't convey would a document evidencing them have to be recorded by the owner of them separately from the deed.  That is, how is a record that can span decades maintained.  If the owner of the land does  not own the mineral rights does the owner of the mineral right have to have a public record created.  I'm sure this would vary by state but probably not by a whole lot (maybe).

 

Posted by Paul Howard, Paul Howard Realty, 856-488-8444 (Paul Howard, Broker, Paul Howard Realty 856-488-8444) over 10 years ago
Well all's well that ends well. Talk about an objection handling technique. Kudos to you.
Posted by Robert L. Brown, Grand Rapids Real Estate Bellabay Realty, West Mic (www.mrbrownsellsgr.com) over 10 years ago
Great Job!  I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when the sellers eyes popped out!  Karen - you did well!
Posted by Nannette Turner, Online Marketing Home Ownership Advocate Specialis (Keller Williams Lynchburg) over 10 years ago
Karen Anne, I have to be honest almost all of the listings with a little bit of land around here don't have mineral rights anyway.  So how much land was the owner on; just curious?
Posted by Marchel Peterson, Spring TX Real Estate E-Pro (Results Realty) over 10 years ago

Sometimes you just have to get a chuckle out of the reluctance of owners to give up thingss, the mineral rights or the dogwood tree that they planted when the child was two.

Fact is, the mineral rights are worthless unless the owner of the surface rights leases the rights for the extraction.  If the seller retained the mineral rights, they would have to have access for extraction.  How much would they be willing to pay the owner of the surface right for extraction??? 

You handled it well.  I still get a chuckle.

 

Posted by Lenn Harley, Real Estate Broker - Virginia & Maryland (Lenn Harley, Homefinders.com, MD & VA Homes and Real Estate) over 10 years ago
This always gets to me because it is so confusing. But what are you going to do if it hold up the sale.
Posted by SacramentoCommercialLoans Bank Turn downs welcomed, Quick closings 916-847-7212 (Sacramento commercial loans) over 10 years ago

I had a closing for a property located in Grant, AL(Marshall County) and the minerals rights were owned by the county. I thought that was different. I don't know about other places in Alabama.

Posted by Kim Wilbourn, Your Local Alabama REALTOR (Kim Wilbourn Realty) over 10 years ago
Interesting blog Karen Anne.  This kind of situation could get more prevalent in the future with the price of fossil fuels going up.  
Posted by Ricki Eichler McCallum, Broker,GRI,ABR, - Your Coastal Bend Home Source (CastNet Realty) over 10 years ago
Robert:  Yes... all has ended well.  Now all I have to do is get it sold and closed.  Thanks for your kind words.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Nanette:  This woman's home was so spotless... there weren't any flies on the wall... or anywhere... LOL.  If was fun telling my silly story, and then watching the reactions.  I should have done a video, but then it would not have been all that spontaneous.  Thanks for your kind words.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Marchel:    From the size of most of the homes in Spring, TX that I have seen on your posts, you could probably put three of these homesites on one of yours.  I'm talking about the ones with the nice yards and the trees... lots of nice homes with privacy in Spring.  Here... I am talking about 50 ft wide by 110 ft deep.  We have areas with larger lots, but of course they are more expensive.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago

Lenn:  Yes... people seem to want to hold on to the silliest things, but then again, what may be important to us... like that tree you mentioned, may be only silly to someone else.

I know when my Dad died, and we had to sell his home in Cleveland, we (the kids) actually thought long and hard about taking about a dozen rose bushes and digging them up and taking them with us.  I remembered when my Mom planted them, and how much she doted on them.  We chose not to take them, and then the day after the new owners moved it, I drove by and saw that they had dug them all out... all of them... and had them all out at the curb for the trash collectors to take.

Of course, I put them all in my trunk, and took them home and re-planted them.  You just never know... one person's keepsakes are another person's trash.  Thanks for your kind words.  Sometimes when I am sitting there listening to an objection, and am deciding what story to tell to answer the objection... I almost break out laughing knowing in advance how they will probably react to my seventh-grade level story.  But... seventh-grade level or not... it usually works every time.  Take care...

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago

Robert:  Yes, it can be confusing, but that's one of the benefits I have from being a Realtor for hundreds of years.  Hold up the sale ?  I don't think so.  If one is a skilled negotiator, there is always some sort of middle ground to work things out in.  Never, ever assume a brick wall cannot be dealt with.  Actually, that's when the fun begins.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Kim:  One of the things in real estate you can assume... is that you cannot assume anything.  Sometimes it is laws, sometimes it is only doing what is customary, but many, many things in real estate vary from state to state, and even between regions of each state.  Unless you know from the same situation having come up beforehand, it's always best to either check with your broker, title company, title attorney, mortgage lender, or whoever the correct source of expertise may be.  Nice to see you commenting, Kim.  I hope all is well with you.  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Paul:  I appreciate your curiousity, I really do.  But... you have worn me out.  I think I have exhausted my answers for you.  Remember... I cannot and will not play attorney.  Have a great evening.  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Ricki:  I am sure the price of fossil fuels rising only exacerbates the mineral rights issue, but to have it become a sticking point on a 50 x 110 neighborhood lot... well... the seller usually has other more important issues to contend with... so I just try and diffuse the issue.  It usually works.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
I had a similar situation in January, only I was representing the buyer.  The Seller absolutely refused to give up the rights.  I just figured it was like what Dr. Phil said in trying to resolve issues between married couples:  Whoever the issue means the most to, the other person may want to concede.  It was very clear that the mineral rights meant more to the Seller than to the Buyer, so we ended up agreeing that if the Seller at some point wanted to dig for minerals, they would have to have the written approval of the Buyers first.  Everybody agreed and we closed!
Posted by Emily Lowe, Nashville TN Realtor (The Lipman Group | Sotheby's International Realty) over 10 years ago

Wow! She sure caved easily! Had I been her broker, we would have had a little chat about sticking to our guns! LOL!

Well deserved star Karen Anne... and well deserved listing too! 

Posted by Jennifer Monroe, Real Estate REALTOR®/Broker in Beautiful Charlotte (Savvy + Company Real Estate) over 10 years ago
Anne - Here in Central Florida we don't have any minerals underground, just termites... and no one wants them.  You did a great job, helping your seller see the light.
Posted by Debbie Summers (Charles Rutenberg Realty ) over 10 years ago

Karen Anne -- Do oil & gas attorneys provide assistance in these disputes, or is it always title companies?  There are some great law firms in DFW that specialize in oil & gas lease law and so forth.  Of course, sometimes an attorney can make things MORE complicated..

Posted by Eric Kodner, Wayzata Lakes Realty: Twin Cities, Madeline Island (Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes) over 10 years ago
Karen Anne -- Great story telling!! I've never had to deal with mineral rights .... typically the railroad owns 'em all. At least in my experience so far. What are these worth? Are prices adjusted to allow for them?
Posted by Gabrielle Nemes, 206.300.8421, S King & Pierce County RE Advocate (RE/MAX Select R.E.) over 10 years ago
Hi Karen Anne - The Barnett Shale sure has made it interesting here in Fort Worth hasn't it! Congratulations on your well deserved feature!
Posted by Linda Scanlan (A Fan of AR) over 10 years ago

Sometimes its the oddest things that come up isn't it. All the best.

Posted by Bob & Carolin Benjamin, East Phoenix Arizona Homes (Benjamin Realty LLC) over 10 years ago
As a LAND MAN for Four Sevens Energy in Fort Worth (My other job) I can tell you that you should tell home buyers not to worry. Many of the people with these homes on small lots will only expect to get a 30-50$ a month check if they start producing natural gas. The only other bonus is that if the mineral rights lease expires, then the oil/gas company has to pay another bonues. Again, the money is minimal on small lots. I think you have a great script for the situation. People have been reserving oil/gas rights for since before the 1900's.
Posted by Christopher Watters, Austin Realtor (512-829-8000) (Watters International Realty) over 10 years ago
Emily:  From your comment, I am not sure if you are talking about a large peice of acreage, or just a small homesite.  Many times I find that the issue being discussed can be made better sense of if I take it in the direction of a story that I use as an example.  Now, it doesn't work like that all the time, but it is more like a parable in the bible that relates to a larger issue.  I am glad your situtation worked out for you.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Sorry I made a mistake Karen-Anne.  The deal didn't fall apart.  It ALMOST fell apart. But I had to argue with my brokerage for a compromise on commissions.  Since everything had stalemated, there was no place else to go. Had they not been willing to compromise I would have been OUT the door instantly.  In this market no one can afford to be bound hand and foot by someone guarding commission rates.  My split is low - so I couldn't afford to swallow the entire amount myself...no matter what.  I negotiated a compromise where both brokerages and the buyers and sellers had to swallow something!  What was exhausting was arguing on so many fronts.
Posted by Ruthmarie Hicks (Keller Williams NY Realty - 120 Bloomingdale Road #101, White Plains NY 10605) over 10 years ago
Jennifer:  I am not quite sure that I would say this woman "caved."  She simply saw the wisdom of what I was saying... and once she understood that what I was saying made sense, she actually agreed with me that it would be better to not contest the mineral rights that might have brought her royalties of $40 a month... and have that upset the sale of her home, which of course would upset her plans of moving to Atlanta to be with her son.  It was not her caving, it was my superior negotiating skills, and my winning personality... LOL.  Jennifer... thanks for your kind words.  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago

Debbie:  I'm not sure who "Anne" is, but she isn't here to answer.  I'm Karen Anne, so my comment will have to do... LOL.

Termites, huh ?  Underground termites.  Is there some sort of animal that would see termites as the main course ?  That might work.  Anyway, Debbie... thanks for your kind words.  It just made sense for my seller not to jeopardize the sale of her home.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Eric:  All this concerns is a small 50 x 110 neighborhood lot with a little house on it.  The situation probably would never have come up until hordes of attorneys and agents peppered all the neighborhoods pitching signing leases with them for the rights to whatever natural gas would be found under their tenth-of-an-acre neighborhood lot.  I am guessing that the big winners, as is typically the case, would be the attorneys signing up these leases.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Gabrielle:  Thanks so much for your kind comment.  Telling stories is a great way to get one's point across.  You can take a more complicated issue and make it less so by creating a story that illustrates the common sense of what is best to do... than by ripping into the actual issue at hand... and then let the seller decide... which she did.  I just told my story, asked her what she thought, and then just quietly sat there... letting the silence build... until she answered.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Linda:  Yes, the Barnett Shale has brought up some issues we have never had to deal with before.  I've always been a "story teller"... I guess it came from nine years of teaching seventh grade.  It is a habit that has served me well.  Thanks so much for your kind comment.  Take care... hope you and hubby are doing well.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Bob and Carolin:  Odd things are often good things... and if they never came up, we'd never had the chance to solve them, and show how valuable our services are.  All the best to you, too.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Christopher:  Thanks... I think the script (story) was just what the seller needed to hear.  Her move out of state is extremely important to her, And holding it up for something minimal like that ended up not making sense to her... so she passed on it to assist in her move.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Ruthmarie:  When you are on a split, arguing with a broker can be horribly demoralizing.  That is why I would never work in an office where I had to get permission to adjust commissions to make something work.  Earlier in my career I was forced into dealing with that nonsense, and... believe me... never, ever again.  Take care... I am glad you made it work... great job !
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
I actually just lost a transaction like this one.... when the prelim came there was an issue with the mineral rights - 50% of them had been deeded to a past owner - and who knows what or where that owner is now... it caused the transaction to fail - we do have areas in Bend where there are no mineral rights - the city owns them though
Posted by Thesa Chambers, Principal Broker - Licensed in Oregon (Fred Real Estate Group) over 10 years ago
Thesa:  Losing a transaction because of something like this can be very painful.  Well, it's always painful, So... will that property ever be able to sell ?  Or was it just the buyer or seller that was upset about it ?  Sorry it crashed, hon.  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Excellent, you handled is to perfection. Most of the time any mineral rights we have here are held by 3rd parties, which is one reason I always order pre-title committment to see if anything is funky. You did good. At least the seller had the authority to transfer them. 
Posted by Missy Caulk, Savvy Realtor - Ann Arbor Real Estate (Missy Caulk TEAM) over 10 years ago
You handled a potential problem with a lot of tact. congratulations! You are a PRO!
Posted by Pat Travasos over 10 years ago

Karen

If that is not a can of worms.

Next thing you know poeple are boring through the ground from outside angles, and then the air space becomes an issue.

Regards

Tom Braatz

Posted by Tom Braatz Waukesha County Real Estate 262-377-1459, Waukesha County Realtor Real Estate agent. SOLD! (Coldwell Banker) over 10 years ago

Mineral rights have become a big issue in parts of central Arkansas as well, with the Fayetteville shale area and this has caused conflicts.  In Barbara's case in White county as the property consisted of 20 acres there is a good chance for profit from the extraction of gas, but on city lots in the same area there is little monetary benefit to be gained by owning the rights since to my understanding the disbursement is made by a percentage of a section that one owns - and a small in town lot would be a small percentage for sure.  But it is becoming an ever-more present issue we must deal with in this area. 

Good job on your scenario to the buyer!  Thanks for sharing!

Posted by Cindy Hill (Keller-Williams Realty/Little Rock, AR) over 10 years ago

I've heard of it, but we don't have it here, but wow, I would say you handled it perfectly!

Posted by Respect Realty LLC, Brokers - Oregon / SW Washington Real Estate (Respect Realty LLC) over 10 years ago

Karen,

Congratulations on being in the top ten roundup for Texas Realtors! Great post. I certainly need to learn more about the mineral rights thing with all the drilling going on around Cedar Hill.

Becky

Posted by Becky Respess, ABR, CRB, CRS (Broker/Associate Century 21 Judge Fite Co) over 10 years ago
That was great. I could never imagine allowing a seller back into my home and to retain a key after closing.
Posted by Christy Powers, Pooler, Savannah Real Estate Agent (Keller Williams Coastal Area Partners) over 10 years ago

Missy:  Thanks for your very kind words.  Here, we are talking about homes that are only three years old, and when they purchased, the mineral rights were not retained by the seller.  So, each buyer got their .12 acres worth of mineral rights... the royalties for which were about $30 to $40 per month.

The seller did have the right, but in all cases like this, if the seller wants to retain the right, and then when that seller becomes a buyer... it is plain common sense that both buyer and seller cannot each have it both ways... which is what many are thinking they are going to try to do.  Thanks for your kind comments.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Pat:  Thanks so much for those very kind words.  I appreciate them.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Tom:  It is surely a very juicy can of worms.  Drilling from the side would have to be done from pretty far away... and this is a multi-block neighborhood with very small lots in it.  Lotsa wormies !  Not a good plan.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Cindy:  You have a "spot-on" understanding of the situation.  I am impressed.  Thank you for your kind words... and I am always happy to share.  By the way, I read your profile, and noticed you are a newbie.  Welcome to Active Rain :)  I will be sure to comment on your first blog post.  Take care... and again, thanks for your kind comment.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Todd:  In Portland, the homes are older, and this same scenario would not apply.  In some of the newer neighborhoods... like in Hillsboro and further out, things similar to this would be more common.  And... thank you so much for your kind compliment.  I appreciate it :)
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Becky:  You are welcome.  It was nice of Marchel to include me... and you too, with your history of Desoto.  Congrats to you !  And yes, with all the new construction around you, this will come up... sooner or later.  Take care...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Christy:  Yes, that would be both most unusual, and very silly.  That is why I used that as an obvious example so the seller would see my point.  Thanks so much for your comment.  Take care.
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago
Quite a drastic approach to getting the point across but I like it and it worked. WAY TO GO
Posted by Tyler Wedel (THIRD TENNESSEE REALTY) over 10 years ago
Tyler:  I must disagree with you.  Drastic ?  What is drastic about telling a silly little story?  But yes, it got the point across in a very harmless, but very low-key and humorous way.  And... she has told that story to just about every one she knows... including a street full of neighbors.  I think I may be tending towards celebrity status here... LOL.  Thanks for the compliment...
Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 10 years ago

I'll remember your "story".  I'm dealing with this every day.  What concerns me most is that we aren't licensed to negotiate minerals but we're almost forced to on every transaction.  I appreciate the new TAR form but it's only a start.

What do you think, Karen?

Posted by Leigh York, Experienced. Educated. Professional. (CENTURY 21 Judge Fite Company) over 10 years ago

After about 20 posts, I believe I got the point.  Once thing to consider from the seller's perspective, with even the current price of gas, the amount of royalties that could come from even an acre lot under a house could equal from $600-$1000 per month.  My believe is that the agent did a dis-service to their selling client and that especially here in Ft. Worth, the money is good enough to hold onto.  My vote is hold onto your mineral rights... I do!  It works out well.  If someone has about 7-10 acres in their name, they could moderately retire.

This is only my personal experience and opinion.

Posted by Charles over 8 years ago

Charles:  The focus of my post... was meant to deal with typical small new home development lots... usually 50 x 110... sometimes 55 x 115 or 60 x 115.  No acreage.  So... we are not talking about very much of a royalty.  But, the point is... if the same buyer/seller wants to buy and GET the mineral rights included (which is the typical situation) and then sell their home and KEEP the mineral rights rather than convey them to the new buyer... it is out of balance.

I guess if a seller wanted to "have it both ways"... I understand that.  I am more interested in fairness... and in getting a good price FOR my seller.  That usually means to convey the small-money-amount of mineral rights royalties back to the buyer.  Again... we are probably talking about no more than .15 acres.

Is that enough to lose a sale over ?  Is that enough to fight over ?  Usually... the answer is no.

Obviously... if you are talking about "acreage"... like the 7-10 acres you use in your example... that is a different story.  But... then again... if the seller keeps the mineral rights... that definitely makes the acreage worth LESS... to just about any buyer who is also contemplating buying acreage... and GETTING those same mineral rights.

                                                                                                                             ( March 11, 2010 )

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) over 8 years ago

I bought a home in central arkansas in 2007, the real estate ad did not mention any word about mineral rights until we came to look at the home and we were told that everything conveyed.  My sons' were with me when we looked at the property and when we were standing in the kitchen with the agent and she said everything conveyed; my son said "Mom, that means you get the mineral rights, so I would offer them the asking price!"  Well, we did offer the asking price and signed the iniitial contract, which was 3 pages long and never received a copy of the initial contract we signed and there was no mention of mineral rights in the contract.  About 10 days later the agent faxed me a very long contract and had typed in "mineral rights do not convey"  when we called her to ask her about the mineral rights, she told us that the railroad company had bought them back in the 40's and the seller did not own them.  Told that we signed the contract and found out that she lied to us and the seller did own them.  We originally owned 1/2 of the minerals and did a refinance a month after the purchase of the home and the sellers signed a new deed in which there was no mention of the mineral rights at all and the oil and gas company told us we owned all of them and we had to pay the taxes on the wells, which we did.  The sellers put a claim in saying there was a mistake and that they were keeping the rights.....now we have to fight for the rights we believed we owned from the time we looked at the home and the real estate agent lied to us and we signed the contract.  Now we have a big mess on our hands.  Can we sue the agent for lying to us originally?

Posted by Glo almost 8 years ago

Glo:  I am not sure who you can sue, because I am not an attorney.  I would get one if I were you... a good REAL ESTATE attorney.  Call your title company and have them suggest one for you to use.

It sounds to me that this agent, at the very least, is in violation of the Realtors Code of Ethics.  I would talk to the attorney, and do whatever they think is best.  I would also suggest filing a complaint with the State Department of Real Estate.  Good luck to you.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) almost 8 years ago

Well, we went to the real estate company that the agent worked for at the time we bought the home to see if we could obtain the original ad and the original contract, but to our dismay the file was not found.  The owner of the company said he worked as an agent and knew the agent that was representing the seller and now he is the owner of the company.  He said they keep the files for 3 years at least, but he could not find ours.  He had files that went back as far as 2006.  He also stated that he would write us a letter stating this fact and that ours could not be found.  Sounds a little shady to me.  The title company tried to say that they made an error on the deed and wanted us to sign a correction deed which would give the sellers all the mineral rights, of course, we did not sign it.  I do have an attorney, we have 20 days to give an answer, cuz the sellers are trying to claim the mineral rights.  We seem to have the worst luck with everything...the atty was going to do it on a contigency basis and we signed a contract with him to that fact, now he wants us to sign a new contract, but he wants money up front now, so I'm hoping he files the answer as I do not get paid until the 1st of november.  The fact is the agent lied to us period....we are so upset about this whole matter.  My son was recently robbed and shot and is now a quadrapalegic and the expenses for his needs exceed our income and even with other resources, it doesn't cover all his necessary supplies, meds and rehab. The monies from the royalties would sure help immensely with some things that are not covered.  Thought I'd give u the latest update.  Please pray that with us that things go well for us!  Thanks!

Posted by Glo almost 8 years ago

Wow! I have read through this because I am about to sell my house. And am thinking about NOT conveying the mineral rights in the sale. I am about to inform my real estate agent of my intent, and I certainly hope that I don't get the "story". Having the mineral rights and having a key to someone's house are not the same. With a residential lot, there is not the possibility of a well being drilled, nor anyone needing ingress/egress rights on your property, etc... So other than someone drilling a well or coming onto the property , what is all the hubbub about keeping the mineral rights?

And I don't know what all the congratulations are for either. I certainly wouldn't appreciate it if I were the clients being talked to like "seventh graders"? Nor, if I were a real estate professional, would I post things like this on a blog where potential clients could read it. First impressions and all...

Posted by Dana about 7 years ago

Dana:  Obviously, those two are not the same... but the silliness of keeping a key is the point I was trying to make.  What my point was... was that if you are talking about moving FROM one residential city lot, and moving TO one residential city lot... it makes no sense to insist on keeping the mineral rights on the lot you are selling, and to INSIST on getting the mineral rights for the lot and home you are buying.

Do you see the inconsistency here?  And also... I kept this post "public" because I thought what I was saying was correct... and honestly, I DO hope that a lot of potential clients see it.  If they agree with me, great.  If they disagree with me... they can find themselves another Realtor who suits their unrealistic needs.

Thank you so much for commenting on my post.  My absolute best to you in all your real estate needs.  Have a great week.

                                                            July 21, 2011

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 7 years ago

Karen, give us some statistic data about the mineral right convey or not:

What the percentage in DFW area, the seller convey the right wholly??

Posted by Linch about 7 years ago

I have been looking for investment property in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and came across one listing that stated that the mineral rights do not convey.  Not knowing what that meant, I looked it up and came across this site.

After reading the majority of posts, I'd have to agree with Karen on this.  As a buyer if I am looking at a piece of property for investment purposes or even for my main home - regardless of the actual dollar amount of the royalties, I would just move on to the next listing.  Hence, a seller insisting on retaining any royalties has just lost a potential buyer.  Even if it is just $40/mo, that almost $500/year!

Quite frankly, I am amazed that there are buyers that would even consider buying without retaining any royalties - especially in this market.

Posted by James over 6 years ago

I read the comments here with great interest.  Why do you all suppose the railroad has retained the mineral rights on their properties since the 1800s?  Had they heard that oil companies would be "cracking" shale in 2012 to extract the resourses?  Of course not!  But, they were farsighted enough to believe that the future rights had some value.  Who knows, some scientist next year may develop a way to convert limestone into "XYZ" fuel, which will become the most used fuel on earth by 2050.  As for me and mine, we retain the mineral rights on ANY property we EVER sell!!! 

 And as to the lady who indicated that someone owning mineral rights under a property they no longer own would have to get drilling access on the property , it's as simple as leasing drilling rights on an adjoining property and diagonally boring under the property.  Think about it; not many mines consist of a single vertical shaft.  They have multiple horizontal shafts running off that main shaft. 

 As to the small 1/2 acre residential  lot not having much value as far as mineral rights, what if a single gas well drilled on that property was the largest producing well ever drilled?? 

Just saying....hindsight is 20/20 and a lot of wealth would have been in different hands if some sellers had retained mineral rights.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Posted by KC Jim over 6 years ago

KC Jim in #108:  I understand your point... but my post is NOT about what you refer to as a "small" 1/2 acre residential lot.  They do not exist in newer homes being built in this price range.  The lots I am referring to are in subdivisions, and range in size from 50x110 to 60x120.  There is no way that anyone is going to be able to drill on a lot next to one of those... and go on an angle to pull gas out from adjacent lots.

Also... I am sorry, but I have no knowledge about railroads and their rights of way.  By the way... if a person sells a property, but retains the mineral rights... that property is worth less to a prospective buyer than a property (probably right next door... fifty feet away) which included the mineral rights.

Also... as far as a single gas well under a 50x120 lot being the source of "the largest producing well ever drilled"... I attempted to base this post in reality... speaking of subdivision lots in the $150,000 price range (including the new house)... in suburbs of Fort Worth, Texas such as Hurst and Euless... and not in far out examples that have no basis in fact or reality in these near-in suburbs.  Thanks so much for reading my post, and for commenting.           April 30, 2012

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