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Attending a Women's Ordination Gave me Blogging Brain Freeze !

My Brain Seems Frozen. 

Now I know that some of you might think that that's a good thing.  In some respects... I might not blame you.

Here's my problem. 

I have something I am just So Excited About... that I just cannot find the words to write a blog post about it.

Three weeks ago... on Saturday, June 9th... I packed up my porky little (HA) body and drove from Fort Worth to Lexington, Kentucky.  Straight... on... through.  935 miles.

Oh, I stopped for a few "power naps" in some of the more safe-appearing rest areas... but basically drove straight on through.

So... what made me do a silly thing like that ?  Well... Little Ol' Liberal/Progressive Me has always been a "rebel" of sorts.  And, of course, it's got me into hot water more than once in my life.

And yes... I have written some posts about Politics and Religion... two subjects that most "sane" Active Rainers would not touch.  And perhaps rightfully so.

But... to continue:  I was "raised" Catholic.  Grade School, High School, College, and if that was not enough... I actually taught seventh and eighth grade in the Catholic Schools in Cleveland, Ohio from 1965 to 1974 before getting into real estate.

I am one of those Catholic Women "Heretics" who thinks that Catholic Women are just as "holy" as the typical Male Catholic Priest... and just as capable, if not more so, of hearing the "calling" (to become a Catholic Priest) that comes from the part of the Trinity many religions call The Holy Spirit.

Well... always poking around on the Internet... it was about June 2 that I read about an Ordination that was going to take place in Lexington, KY.  Not your ordinary ordination, but the Ordination of a Catholic Women Priest... administered by a Catholic Woman Bishop.

I have been a Realtor for the last 30 years... but for the last four years... I've had a heart condition that no longer allows me to physically "show" homes.  So honestly... I just don't get out much, anymore.

But... after seeing and reading about this Woman's Priestly Ordination... the thought of attending it immediately shot up to the top of my own personal Bucket List.  It was something I just had to do.  So... after the very difficult task of packing and loading up my Honda CRV... up to Lexington I went.

The top picture above is that of Catholic Deacon Donna Rougeux lying prostrate in front of the altar as she awaits her Ordination, and for the "laying on of hands" by Bishop Meehan.

[In the above picture... the newly Ordained Rev Donna Rougeux is in the middle, flanked by Catholic Bishop Bridget Mary Meehan on the left, and Catholic Rev Janis Sevre-Duszynska on the right.  Rev Donna Rougeux is 52 years old.  Both of her daughters read one of the Epistles at the Ordination Mass, and Rev Rougeux's son played guitar in the liturgical musical group that accompanied the Ordination.  There are currently 130 validly ordained Catholic Women Priests in the world... 93 of whom are either Priests or Bishops in the United States.]

It was so incredibly moving.  The atmosphere of the Ordination was so hauntingly spiritual.  The presence of the Holy Spirit... at least to those two hundred-fifty or so who were present... was so all-incompassing. 

The Holy Spirit is at times referred to by many learned Biblical scholars as "the Feminine Aspect of The Divine."  The mentions of that are "obscure"... but they are IN the bible, and also in many versions of the older biblical texts.

The Ordination was at three o'clock Saturday afternoon, June 9th... and the Reception/Dinner... to which I was invited... was from five to seven o'clock.

The Ordination, by the way, was a VALID Ordination.  The fact that it was done even though ordaining women is currently forbidden by the Catholic Church... may have made it "illegal."  However... the fact that it might be "illegal..." has NO bearing on the validity of the Ordination. 

The Bishop who ordained Bishop Meehan (who is ordaining Rev Donna Rougeux) is currently a Male Bishop of the Catholic Church in Austria... with the full "apostolic succession" that "the Church" requires of those Bishops who ordain others.

If I may make a comparison... someone steals a chicken.  That chicken lays an egg.  Now... that egg surely is "stolen..." and is therefore "illegal..." but it is still very much an egg.  (ahh... the simplicity of the workings of my seventh-grade mind.)  Illegal does not equate with invalid.

Those in attendance were perhaps 250 or so in number.  Mostly women... about 75 or 80% women, but a nice mixture of men, as well.  Mostly older, "mature" women... (HA)... but actually, quite an encouraging mixture of folks of all ages.

After the ordination and Reception... and about an hour of conversation with Rev Rougeux, Bishop Meehan, and after making many new friends of those in attendance, I returned to my motel... anticipating driving back to Fort Worth on Sunday.

Of course... I was well aware that my hotel just might end up being surrounded by angry mobs with their pitchforks and torches... ready to burn me at the stake as one of the many Heretics who attended the Ordination. 

Luckily, my fears were unfounded.

------------------------

NOTE:  This is weird.  My brain was so frozen about writing about Rev Rougeux's Ordination... that I could NOT find a place to start.  I wanted to write the "Perfect Post."  So I tried to settle inside my lil brain about just what to say.  I wanted to do it so perfectly that I ended up not even being able to start.  Brain Freeze set in.

It was only in actually writing this post... which was initially going to be about asking just HOW anyone of you gets past "brain freeze..." that I ended up thawing my frozen brain... and was able to write about the Ordination.

Funny how that happens.

~                                        ~                                        ~

Comment balloon 82 commentsKaren Anne Stone • June 30 2012 10:39PM

Comments

Karen, pretty good job for someone who had brain freeze. Sometimes you just have to start typing before the words actually come to you. It sounds like this was a wonderful event that you seem very passionate about. I'm glad you were able to attend and share this awesome event with us.

Posted by Tammie White, www.FranklinHomesRealty.com or (615) 495-0752 (Franklin Homes Realty LLC) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne,

Yes, it is about time...funny how in ancient times, women were often the high priestesses.  The ancients were a lot wiser than we are in many aspects.  I am so glad you shared your excitement...and told us about it.  Have a great weekend. A

Posted by Ron and Alexandra Seigel, Luxury Real Estate Branding and Marketing (Napa Consultants) about 5 years ago

Tammie:  It really does show how things... writing in particular... works best for me.  Just Do It.  Uh oh... saying that does make me sound like Nancy Reagan, doesn't it?

And yes... this is one of the few things that I AM pretty passionate about.  It's also something that I have believed in since I was in the fifty grade... at the age of ten.  Ouch... fifty-eight years ago.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Alexandra... isn't it funny how we live in a world where the Pope and his buddies wear the dresses, and Hillary wears the pants.  LOL.  I think there might be a message there somewhere.

There is no question that in many ways... the "ancients" were so much wiser than so many are today.  Yes... centuries ago, women were the High Priestesses.  Society was run by women, and there were NO WARS.

Society was matrilineal, matriarchal, and matrifocal.  Three good things that should really be in force today.

And yes... I am so glad I shared my excitement, as well.  It's been bubbling up inside my brain for three weeks, now.  But... remember what "they" used to say.  "Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble."

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Karen, I find several things very interesting:

  1. This inspired you to drive 935 miles to witness the event in which you knew no one.
  2. I was unaware of the facts of female Catholic priests who are actually ordained. Really glad to know that.
  3. You are unable to show homes anymore.
Having said that, "I strongly affirm you and the Catholic priests who have ordained women!" Women make great priests and pastors. Thanks for sharing of your experiences.
 
Cal
Posted by Cal Yoder, Homes For Sale in Lancaster PA - 717.413.0744 (Keller Williams Elite) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne:  Well, all I can say is - good for you and good for the newly ordained priest.  The intolerable stance of the Catholic misogynists in Rome has made me rethink organized religion.  A little difficult to kick over those habits and beliefs but.....  Ordaining women is one small step to getting change to take place.  

Posted by Valerie Zinger, Home Organizer (House Proud Ottawa-Ontario-Canada) about 5 years ago

Good for you, Karen, for acting on your passion instead of wishing you had. The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. :-) 

Posted by Barbara Tattersall, GRI (Keller Williams Realty Metropolitan (Keene,NH)) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne, this is uplifting news for certain.  I am a recovering Catholic having left the religion for many reasons, primarily though the male dominance in the hierarchy and the line in the sand they refuse to cross when it comes to women within the organization and so little regard for their female members.   I'm also distressed with the role they've played in history and their conspicuous consumption and wealth accumulation for ages.

All of that said, at the end of the day religion is a very personal thing and you've just made it easier for me to be a touch more tolerant of my former faith.  My heart is warmed to hear your story and happy that the journey was so fulfilling for you.

 

Posted by Mona Gersky, GRI,IMSD-Taking the mystery out of real estate. (MoonDancer Realty, Dillsboro,NC) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne, I am sitting here with my coffee and my mouth hanging open (not attractive).  I had no idea.  I am a Catholic and practice.  With all it's warts and horns, it's my religion.  It is so long needed for women to be acknowledged as an something more important than appendage.  I am so proud of you, I hope your proud of you too.

Posted by Liz Wallace, Broker C21 Sherlock Homes, Rockville Centre, LI, N (Century 21 Sherlock Homes) about 5 years ago

Good morning Karen Anne - That is a beautiful story. You were so lucky to have witnessed this, and we're so lucky that you shared it. A great day for women, and humans, everywhere!

Incidentally, you seem to have proven my personal mantra that the solution to writers block is to write :) 

Posted by Wayne and Jean Marie Zuhl, The Last Names You'll Ever Need in Real Estate (Hallmark Realtors) about 5 years ago

Oh this event would just kill my 98 year old, Catholic, overbearing ( whom I love very much ) grandmother. She is so old fashioned in her religion. That is one area where we don't see eye to eye, and my father had the common sense to take me away from the Church when I was about 12. I quit going to Catholic schools when I entered the 8th grade. No more plaid jumpers for me. HA.

But good for you...traveling all that way by yourself.

Posted by Debbie Laity, Your Real Estate Resource for Delta County, CO (Cedaredge Land Company) about 5 years ago

Cal in #5:  I am used to driving from Fort Worth to Cleveland, OH (I was born and raised there) to visit friends and my niece, and that is 1240 miles... so a trip of 935 was not all that bad... although driving both there and back in the space of three and one half days I must admit was "pushing it."

The Ordination of Catholic Female Priests is currently "forbidden" by the Catholic Pope and Hierarchy in Rome.  That fact, according to Rome, makes this Ordination "illegal."  But... Rev Rougeux was Ordained by a Woman Catholic Bishop who herself was Ordained by a current Male Bishop of the Catholic church... (having happened in Austria and in secrecy due to threat of excommunication).  However... all the Church's "rules" were followed... as far as "priestly succession" was concerned.  Great care was taken to make sure of that.  Therefore, this ordination may have been "illegal"... but it was definitely  VALID.

No... I cannot walk the type of distances I would need to show homes, and definitely am not able to handle the trips up and down stairs.  I can handle normal stuff, although trips to Kroger require me to get help in taking my groceries out to the care.  And tragically... I can no longer compete in the 100 meter dash events in the Olympics... LOL.

The Male Catholic Bishops who braved the way to continue the tradition of Apostolic Succession to make sure that these Ordinations were VALID... deserve endless prayers for their bravery in the face of the tyrannical Roman Catholic Church... and their backwards-looking and equally tyrannical current Pope... Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.  It's all "political."

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Valerie in #6:  Thank you for your kind words.  And yes... it IS intolerable.  The word "misogynists" covers it, I think... but even more than that... I think a word that describes their attitude and response better than that... is just plain old "FEAR."  The senile old men in Rome are simply afraid of these women.

Currently the Penn State mess has former coach Sandusky facing something like forty-years in prison for the events surrounding his acts with those boys under his care.

Contrast that with the trial that just ended where a diocesan priest who showed a long-standing pattern of shifting around known priest pedophiles from parish to parish when their abuse became known.  This "priest" gets a slap on the wrist.  Wow.

Rome has recently begun a campaign to quash and squash an organization of Catholic Sisters... the Leadership Conference of Women Religious.  The LCWR represents 57,000 US Sisters... which is 80% of the Nuns in the United States.  The Catholic Bishops say these Sisters are spending too much time working with the poor and the disadvantaged, and need to spend MORE time doing such things as picketing those who advocate Same Sex Marriage.  I mean, talk about misplaced priorities.  HA.

It appears that the Sisters have "Good Habits..." and are really the ones following in Christ's footsteps.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Keller Williams (Barbara Tattersall) in #7:  You know... what you say has always been true... that the "hand that rocks the cradle rules the world."

I honestly thought about NOT going up to Kentucky to take part in the Ordination of Rev Donna Rougeux, but am so glad I did.  Part of the Ordination has the Bishop performing the "Laying of the Hands" on the soon-to-be Priest during the Ordination.

As part of the Ordination Mass... the entire congregation was invited to come up to the altar and lay our own hands on Deacon Donna Rougeux. 

I was surprised when everyone (including myself) actually DID file up to the altar and lay our own hands upon Donna's head... in a very real way signifying that all of us were taking part in either Ordaining Donna, or welcoming her into the Ordained Priesthood. 

To me it was obvious that the Holy Spirt was truly present as She breathed Her Wisdom upon Rev Rougeux.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Mona in #8:  Mona... the largest religious group in the United States... is the Catholic Church.  And honestly, the second largest religious group in the US is those who are referred to as the former Catholics... the "fallen-away" Catholics... the "recovering Catholics..." and so forth.

With the current Pope in charge... such an incredibly large number of Catholics have decided that "enough if enough."  Unfortunately, Benedict... whose name is Joseph Ratzinger... that's just the way he wants it.  In a recent book about Ratziner titled "The Rule of Benedict"... which I read cover-to-cover twice... he maintains that he much rather prefers a smaller, tighter, more ultra-conservative group of Catholics rather than a larger group... part of which wants things to change.  I saw it from the inside during my nine years of teaching in a Catholic Parish Church school... and it wasn't pretty.

It is all political, and it is all about control.

And yes, the wealth of the church is uniquely bizarre.  I have read that in some dioceses where the Church was anticipating lawsuits for damages being filed by abuse victims... a great portion of the assets and wealth was transferred into "trust accounts" that could not be touched by those abuse lawsuits.  And this... is "christian ?"

Could anyone imagine that if a diocese was run by a Woman Bishop... that there would be any way that she would transfer a known abusing priest from one parish to another... just to protect the "reputation" of "The Church ?"  No way a woman would do that.  None !

So yes... with all of this in mind... we, the Catholic church... are so very much in need of Women Priests.  In this case, as in many cases... "the best man for the job... is a woman."

Yes, Miss Mona, the trip surely did "warm my heart..." and I am so glad that my  re-telling of my story has provided warmth to your heart, as well.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Liz in #9:  Yes... I am guessing that a story like this would cause many current (and former) Catholics to be somewhat stunned.  There are so many Catholics who are hanging on to their "Church" by a thread.  It is such a dilemma for so many.  You want to stay... you need to stay... yet for many reasons... you can't stand staying.

Remember, though, that the current Pope has said women are NOT to be ordained.  As I explained above... according to Benedict... this Ordination was "illegal"... which, by definition, may be the case.

But also... by definition, and by all the requirements needed to have a "valid Ordination..." the Ordination of Rev Rougeux WAS VALID.  She IS... a priest.  If I may make a silly comparison... someone steals a chicken.  That chicken lays an egg.  The egg surely is "stolen"... and therefore "illegal..." but it is still very much an egg.  (ahh... the simplicity of the workings of my seventh-grader mind.)  Illegal does not equate with invalid.

I would love to have a video of you asking your local parish priest about this... LOL.  I am sure it would go "viral" on YouTube.

Some will say... "if you don't like it... leave."  It's the same baloney they said to us back in the sixties during the Vietnam War protests.  The old... "love it or leave it" nonsense.  What shows greater faith... and greater love of one's faith ?  Abandoning ship, or staying and working to make the church "more Christ-like."  To me, the answer is obvious.

I am so pleased with your pride in me, and so pleased in myself that I made the journey to Lexington.  The Ordination was indeed very special, but the fact that I was able to take a personal part in the "laying on of the hands" made it oh so much more memorable.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Wayne and Jean Marie in #10:  Yes... I love the way you put that.  A great day for women, AND humans.  LOL.

I think the Ordination was truly beautiful.  It really was.  I am so pleased with myself that I forced myself to make the trip.  Even though I have driven longer distances before... 935 miles straight-through was harder this time than I thought it would be.  Not quite like a drive up the New Jersey Turnpike at 2:00 in the morning.  LOL.

And yes, I know... the best cure for writer's block is to just start writing.  But I wanted SO much for this post to be perfect.  So much so that I felt if it wasn't in my mind as perfect to start with... I probably would not end up writing it at all.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne, it sounds to me like you were in a way led to go and witness this beautiful event.  I was born and raised Catholic and to me whenever I enter a Catholic Church I feel like I am home, and I even cry silently with real tears during communion.  It just happens.  Perhaps it is because it is what I know, but along the way I have experienced other churches, and my first husband and I were married in a Lutheran Church after going through all of their indoctrination, but home to me was always the Catholic Church.  I am glad they are acknowledging women as they should have in the beginning, but it was man, in my mind and not God, who would not acknowledge.  Thank you for sharing your wonderful and meaningful experience.

Posted by Mary Stewart, Wilsonville and Surrounding Portland Metro Areas (HomeTrust Real Estate, LLC, Homes for Everyone) about 5 years ago

Debbie in #11:  Well... I am sure we both want your Grandmother to stay with us... so I won't tell her about this if you won't... LOL.  I would still love to meet her, though.

So tell me... do you have an old picture showing you wearing those plaid jumpers you used to wear when you were in 12 years old, and still in the Catholic Schools ?  I would love to see it, as would ALL of your many fans, I am sure.

I don't know where my own "common sense" was... in that I went all the way through the Catholic Schools.  But, I had great teachers.  I loved many of the Sisters at St Jerome Elementary School in Cleveland... even though they "skipped me over" the fourth grade... a trauma that I have never recovered from. 

Believe it or not... when I taught seventh and eighth grade at St Felicitas Catholic School... my average class size was 44 students.  Yes... 44.  And rarely a discipline problem.  And going back to my OWN third grade... the class size for that year... there were Eighty-One kids in my class.  Yes... 81 kids.  Maybe that's why they skipped me, and my friend Anne Marie Zeitz over the fourth and straight into the fifth grade.  Such trauma.

Speaking of driving all that way... I have already thought about driving to Cedaredge, CO to visit you... but you are at an elevation of 6,230 feet... and that would not work well with my heart condition.  I tried driving to Denver for a By Referral Only seminar three years ago... and once I got there and actually got into the seminar... I could barely walk a few feet without having to stop for awhile to catch my breath.  I had to leave after one day.  It was rough.  The mile-high-city elevation of 5,280 feet was too high for me... so Cedaredge at 6,230 would be much worse.  Darn !

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne:  Apparently (and according to my husband who will bear witness) every time there is another story of priests taking advantage of little boys I go on a rant - for days.  And you are right - the same sentence as  Sandusky received would be appropriate.  I have no respect for the Catholic clergy (as a group) because of all of the perverts.  I now have friends who will 1) never let their kids be alter boys or girls and 2) will never let them be unsupervised by a parent while at the church or alone with a priest.  Says a lot about how far the church has fallen.  

Posted by Valerie Zinger, Home Organizer (House Proud Ottawa-Ontario-Canada) about 5 years ago

Good for you Karen ..For someone wit a brain freeze you wrote a great post

Hannah

Posted by Hannah Williams, Expertise NE Philadelphia & Bucks 215-953-8818 (Re/Max Eastern inc.) about 5 years ago

Mary in #18:  You know, I really think you might be right.  I think it is very possible that the Holy Spirit, also known as Wisdom, as Hochma, as Shekinah, and as The Feminine Aspect of The Divine in many, many of the ancient texts... DID lead me to this Ordination.  And to the finding of it on the Internet only seven days before it was to happen.

Were you aware that at the Council of Nicea in 323... every bishop in the church except two of them agreed to throw out all of the ancient books that had been up to that time considered to be part of the hundreds of valid epistles and gospels of the church, and at that time chose the much smaller group of texts that fully agreed with their thinking... and made them the "Canon" of the church... which would eventually become its "Bible."

Yes... there IS something about just entering a Catholic church.  Perhaps much of that is a result of the brainwashing I, and many of us, experienced from going all that way through the Catholic Schools... but perhaps, just perhaps... it's The Holy Spirit... as Wisdom, as She acts within us... breathing Life and Imagination into us.

If you look at the word "inspiration"... it begins with the word "inspire"... which could easily be presented as "In Spirit."

Unfortunately, Mary... the "They" that you mention that are acknowledging women as they should have in the beginning... are NOT those in Rome in the "official" Church.  The "They" that they are... are not "the Church."  We... are the church.  We always have been.  We have just allowed ourselves to be lulled into a mentality of bovine placidity... of cow-like quiet-ness and silence.

It is still "man" who fails to acknowledge that we are all One.

What a perfect name you have for this conversation.  Mary... I am so glad to have been able to share this with you.  And even more, I am so glad you were able to find it and read it.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Valerie in #20:  I rant as well.  But... if you can remember back in the 1970's about what was called "Watergate" here in the States... it was only a few who actually participated in the Republican Party's break-in and burglary of the Democratic Party's offices in The Watergate.  But the MAIN problem... was the tens and tens... perhaps hundreds of conservative Republicans who participated in the Watergate Burglary cover-up.

In trying to be fair... I think it is a small number of Catholic Priests who actually abused young boys.  Most Catholic Male priests would not do that... I don't think. 

BUT... the sheer number of those Catholic Priests, Bishops, and even the Popes... yes, several of them... who refused to take the actions of those abusive priests seriously... is what was unconscionable.  They pushed it all under the rug.  They transferred those offending priests to other parishes.  And Cardinal Bernard Law... that creep... they simply sent him to Rome to work for the Pope directly.

They continued to "hide it"... not wanting to risk the "reputation" of the Catholic Church.  Well... hiding it sure worked out well for them, didn't it ?  Ummm... not so much.

Again... if some of the Bishops, and even some of the Popes had been women... do you for ONE minute think they would have continued to put up with that nonsense.  No woman that I know would.

If you look deeper... we all begin to see how far "the Church" as we have known it, has fallen.  Extremely misplaced priorities.  Again... this time... as well as many times in the past... the best man for the job, would have been a woman.

Valerie... I appreciate you coming back with another comment here like you have.  Having an ongoing dialogue amoung the commentors is very welcomed on my posts.

And by the way... may I wish you a Happy and Joyous Canada Day today.  Enjoy !

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Hannah in #21:  Yes... this surely does show that the best cure for Blogging Brain Freeze is to simply start writing.  Thanks for your kind words.

What continues to be funny, here, is that the more I respond to comments... the more this entire post turns into an Epistle of its own... LOL.  It even inspired me to add a third picture... the third picture showing the "laying of the hands."  I could easily get carried away with the pictures... because I took over one hundred of them at the Ordination.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

That certainly was worth attending.  The Catholic Church has a lot of growing up and getting with the times to do.  

Posted by Chris Ann Cleland, Associate Broker, Northern VA (Long and Foster REALTORS®, Gainesville, VA) about 5 years ago

Chris Ann:  Right now... the Catholic Church has it's Model T transmission in reverse, and is hitting the gas.  Those in control really don't want to "grow up."  And... the Pope has been stacking the deck that is his "College of Cardinals" with ultra-conservatives every year for the seven years he has been Pope.

The chances for a reversal of all that honestly, in my opinion, are slim.  There is, however, quite a "revolt" going on in the pews.  The trouble is that with the newly elected head of the Catholic Conference of Bishops and Archbishop Dolan... they are the ones behind the current attack on the Sisters of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious.  That's partially what the current "Nuns on The Bus" tour is all about.

Actually... I think there is more the possiblity of a "split" within the church rather than the Pope seeing the foolishness of his ongoing escapades.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne, thank you so much for your response.  So many things I did not know.  We are not so different in many way.  I hope you have beautiful day.

Posted by Mary Stewart, Wilsonville and Surrounding Portland Metro Areas (HomeTrust Real Estate, LLC, Homes for Everyone) about 5 years ago

Mary:  You are very welcome.  I think the more we all share with each other... the more we see that deep down inside... we have so many things... and concerns... in common.  And I mean... all of us.  Happy Sunday !

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Karen:  Bless your little progressive heart for making this long trip and taking part in this history-making ceremony.  As I believe that each and every one that occurs IS history-making.  And probably driving the Pope crazy, too.  Unfortunately you don't need to look within the Catholic church alone for the antiquated opinion regarding women being leaders and pastors within their own churches.  Many protestant denominations still harbor those opinions as well.  Personally I believe it's time to lay those opinions and actions to rest.  Actions such as yours show that many take a stand against antiquated rules and decisions.  Kudos to you for making the effort you did .. and the stand. 

Hope you are now rested-up as I believe we're heading into a very active and spirited presidential election season ...

Gene

Posted by Gene Mundt, IL/WI Mortgage Originator - FHA/VA/Conv/Jumbo/Portfolio/Refi, 708.921.6331 - 40+ yrs experience (NMLS #216987, IL Lic. 031.0006220, WI Licensed. APMC NMLS #175656) about 5 years ago

God I am so impressed by you, you are more than brilliant and more than kind.  Jesus loves you this I know :)

 

Posted by Liz Wallace, Broker C21 Sherlock Homes, Rockville Centre, LI, N (Century 21 Sherlock Homes) about 5 years ago

You are my kind of woman - picking up like that and making something on your bucket list happen. Good for you! Sounds like you had a great trip!

Posted by Shannon Milligan, Richmond VA Real Estate Agent/Associate Broker, RVA Home Team - Winning with Integrity. (RVA Home Team) about 5 years ago

wow...over 900 miles... good for you... what a great thing.. and glad you didn't get "pitchforked".. LOL

Posted by Sheila Newton Team -- Anderson & Greenville SC Real Estate, 27 years experience -Residential Real Estate Sales (Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices - C. Dan Joyner) about 5 years ago

I'm very impressed that you made this solo trip. I've never done anything like that before. I read that you've done it many times before and so it's not really a big deal, but it still kind of is. You were obviously passionate about what you were going to witness and that gave you the strength and endurance. I'm sorry to hear you have a heart condition and I wonder how you manage in the real estate world unless you just list.

Posted by Jill Sackler, LI South Shore Real Estate - Broker Associate (Broker Associate, Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc. "Said and Done!") about 5 years ago

Gene in #29:  It was a long trip, but it was more than worth it.  Somehow I just felt "moved" to do it.  Not sure what was "inspiring" me... but I think I know.

The Ordination surely was "history-making..." but it was also one in a line of 130 such ordinations of women priests so... since 2002 in Austria by Austrian Catholic Bishops.  As I said... there are now 130 Women Catholic Priests... with 93 of them living in the United States.

These women have heard their "calling" through the holy spirit... and who is to try and argue that the calling they have heard is any less real than the calling the male priests have themselves heard.

The problem is that those in authority... the Pope and his "Boys..." have tried to convince everyone that they have a private line to God.  Unfortunately for them... the wool that was used to pull that one over the eyes of the "faithful" ran out a long time ago.

Bless you for your kind words.  I have no problem taking a stand.  I have had this "stand"... since I had the displeasure of teaching for nine years in a Catholic parish school... and saw the vicious workings of that particular Italian Catholic Monsignor who ran that parish... which was St Felicitas Church in NorthEastern Ohio.  That's when I saw, and came to believe... that it was all politics.  And what a dirty game they played.

Gene... the last thing I am is "rested up."  Not sure how much longer I can keep all of this up... but at least I'm working on it.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Liz in #30:  You sweet and very kind words are almost beyond my comprehension.  Brilliant ?  I think I may be more than several light bulbs short of that.  Kind ?  I try to be... and actually, what else makes sense other than kindness ?

If I close my eyes, and listen hard... I can almost hear you singing "Jesus loves you, this I know... for Liz Wallace tells me so."

Again... thank you... you are very kind.

Shannon in #31:  It was really something I just HAD to do.  I only had about a one-week notice between when I found out about it, and the actual date, June 9th, of the Ordination. 

I did have a great trip... and I do believe it was a good thing for me to do, in many ways.  I knew if I didn't do it then... I might never have the chance again.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Sheila in #32:  Yes my dear... 935 miles and three power-naps.  And, unfortunately, more than a few bouts with those rat-a-tat strips along the side of the pavement that made lots of noise and shook the car when I started dozing and was about to run off the road.  Yeah, uh huh, I know.  Really foolish.  But, I made it.  I was hoping I would be guided by the Holy Spirit, and I was.  She took very good care of me.

Noper on the pitch forks.  Some of the torches came fairly close to my motel room, but I made sure I took my troop of killer squirrels with me.  They stood guard in rows of four right outside my room... barking, squealing, hissing and baring their teeth when anyone came near.  Quite a scary bunch.  Bless their little protective squirrel-hearts.

Jill in #33:  Oh yes... I drove it solo.  The squirrels I mentioned in comment #35 were all asleep in the back.  Besides... their little legs weren't long enough to reach the pedals and drive, anyway.

When I lived in Columbia, Maryland in 1987... I would jump in my Honda and drive out I-70 to the PA Pike, and then west to Cleveland.  About 400 miles, and it took about six hours.  I also like to drive at night.  I find it very relaxing.  Just me and the moonlight and the stars.  What a combo !

But now, at age 68... it unfortunately IS much more of a "trudge" than it used to be. As far as my heart is concerned... I am told I need a valve transplant.  I do not have any hospitalization other than Medicare, and do not have anyone who can help me after the surgery... so I feel my hands are tied.

As far as real estate is concerned... I have a few "production" new-home builders that I occasionally help out when they have first-time buyers who need someone to help them negotiate out of their apartment leases... or sometimes do a lease buy-out for them... when those folks want to buy a spec that is ready for move-in.  All of my efforts are mental/emotional in the negotiating area, rather than physical in showing them homes all over the county.  It works.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Karen  Anne  As one of the "frozen chosen" (Presbyterian) I have absolutely no knowledge of the politics of other religions.  However, I respect and applaud your progressive attitude.  I make a profound distinction betwen a progressive and a radical on either the left or the right whether in a church or the political arena.  I equally dislike people like Rush Limbaugh and Ed Schultz.  I have to say, "no vote" when it comes to the Catholic church.  However, it would not be wise to get me started on the "frozen" aspects of the "chosen"

Posted by Karen Kruschka, - "My Experience Isn't Expensive - It's PRICELESS" (RE/MAX Executives) about 5 years ago

Karen in #37:  I must admit that I have never heard of the phrase "the frozen chosen."  I would love to hear your ideas on it.

As far as being a radical... I don't find any appeal in either the far radical right or the far radical left.  I feel those on the far right can and do cause more harm than good... but that's just me.  And the last thing I want is to see the religious beliefs of the right turned into laws, and then have their behavior forced upon everyone.  That to me is plain old Theocracy.  Much too close to Iran for my taste.

So yes... I DO see myself as a Progressive rather than further towards either edge of the spectrum.  And to me, as this post shows... I believe ALL can be called to a religious vocation... regardless of whether they have an innie or an outie.  And I'm not talking about belly-buttons here, either... LOL.  By the way... thanks for coming over and commenting.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

"There are so many Catholics who are hanging on to their "Church" by a thread.  It is such a dilemma for so many.  You want to stay... you need to stay... yet for many reasons... you can't stand staying."

I believe you have hit the nail on the head with that line.  Why is it so hard? 

Thank you for sharing your story - I don't agree with most of your political posts but I do appreciate you sharing this story.  But I'm bothered about it being valid and illegal at the same time - I would like it to be both legal and valid - the day will come - it's just very far off.

Posted by Margaret Goss, Chicago's North Shore & Winnetka Real Estate (Baird & Warner Real Estate) about 5 years ago

Margaret in #39:  It is "valid"... which means... it works.  It is simply "illegal" because Pope Benedict doesn't like the idea of women priests and has not only continued the ban on women, but he vehemently refused to recognize them as being "fit" to be able to be priests.   He continues to think/believe that only men are "open" to the priesthood.  Very un-Christ-like.

It is so funny and tragic at the same time that things can either remain, or change... on a whim.  I remember as a child when were were convinced... in the 1950's... that if we ate a hamburger on a Friday, we were going straight to hell.

If one reads some of the ancient texts... there are many places where women have served the early church as disciples and apostles.  They taught, they prophesied, they worked miracles, and in the case of Mary Magdalene... who was called the "Apostle to the Apostles" when she went to them per Christ's directive after he appeared to her after his resurrection.  They were huddled in fear in the "upper room"... not knowing what to do, or what to believe.  She went to them, told them what she had been told, and then shared with them some things that Christ had only shared with her.

There is a quote from Christ in Galatians 3:28 which says "There is neither jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."  That sounds pretty clear to me.  

Other translations end that verse with... "We are all One in the Spirit."  It seems pretty clear that Christ himself did not hold women as inferior to men, or unworthy to follow him and lead his church.  That all came along centuries later.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Karen ...  You speak your mind, walk the walk and do what your heart tells you to do - A shero if you will.

Posted by John McCormack, AlbuquerqueHomes.com, Albuquerque Homes Realty (Albuquerque Homes Realty * www.AlbuquerqueHomes.com) about 5 years ago

I love your story and your spit and fire....a few years ago in our church that is fairly liberal we had an ordained minister who was a female.   I love her so much as my pastor.    But imagine my surprise when I was talking to a friend who attends the same denomination in a different state.   She said she had heard about our "female" pastor and how horrible it was.   I was really shocked.   I know both of us are pretty conservative but really!   I couldn't believe it  

But i guess we are all entitled to our opinions.   I do have a male pastor now since Pastor Linda remarried and moved on and I really enjoy him ...but still sometimes miss Linda! 

Posted by Deborah Byron Leffler BzyBee Real Estate Lady! (Keller Williams Realty Boise) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne, It is so exhilerating to just get in the car and go somewhere to partake of something that we are passionate about.  You had quite a trip.  Nice photos of the ordination.

Posted by Judi K Barrett, BA, Integrity Real Estate Services -IDABEL OK (Judi Barrett~Integrity Real Estate Services~Idabel, Oklahoma) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne - looks like you made a journey, and it makes you proud and happy you made it. you wrote beautifully about it. Not bad for brain frozen (LOL), absolutely not...

just look how many people enjoyed reading about it.

Congrats on a fulfilling journey

Posted by Jon Zolsky, Daytona Beach, FL, Buy Daytona condos for heavenly good prices (Daytona Condo Realty, 386-405-4408) about 5 years ago

Leaps and bounds, leaps and bounds.  Every day someone somewhere is making leaps and bounds to equality.  Thank you for sharing.

P.S.  I'd like to go on a road trip with you.  I would soak up all your knowlege and be happy to drive :) 

Posted by Kerrie La Guardia, Let it Rain! (ActiveRain, Community Manager) about 5 years ago

Kerrie, that might really be fun... hopefully for both of us.  And actually... knowledge-wise... each of us could take turns being the soak-er and the soak-ee.  Sharing is a good thing!

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Karen,

   Geez, I wish my brain freeze was similar to yours!

   Your post was enlightening and inspiring. I am impressed with your passion and adventurous spirit and can only imagine what a moving experience this must have been for you.

   Let's hope this ordination was one small step for women and the church that will lead to one great leap.....

Posted by Julie Bentley, Saint Johns, FL REALTOR (Watson Realty Corp, Jacksonville, FL ) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne so glad you followed your heart and enjoyed the experience. You are one brave lady!

Posted by Al & Peggy Cunningham, Brokers, Our Family Wants To Help Your Family! (RE/MAX West Realty Inc., Brokerage) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne ~ what an amazing story!  I'm a 'recovering Catholic' myself and have a brother who's an ordained Priest, but he was always progressive in his thoughts and wouldn't agree with the Vatican on many topics.  I think it's awesome that you took that trip!  You're showing us all that we can indeed stand up for our own beliefs and by sharing this with others, you encourage us all to do the same.  Bravo!!

Posted by Maureen Bray Portland OR Home Stager ~ Room Solutions Staging, "Staging that Sells Portland Homes" (Room Solutions Staging, Portland OR) about 5 years ago

Karen Anne,you did write the perfect post. I was moved by your passion and your description! What a wonderful experience to have and one less thing on your 'bucket list'!

Posted by Peg Barcelo, The FlufftasticStager from Summerland, BC (Fluff My House! Home Staging Inc. 250.486.6369) about 5 years ago

Wow, Awesome and Compelling Post!  I'd say the Holy Spirit must have "unfroze" your brain for this wonderful post.

Posted by Debbie Cook, Silver Spring and Takoma Park Maryland Real Estate (Long & Foster Real Estate, Inc) about 5 years ago

Christ spoke to Mary upon his resurection. She was the first person he appeared to and commanded her to go forth and spresd the good news.  That sounds a lot like preaching to me.  I feel nothing but contempt for religions who try to use their version of God to hold women down.  Glad you went on that trip.  You and all the others who attended brought all the validity to that ordination that was necessary. The Pope can go fly a kite.

Posted by Leslie G. Rojohn, GRI, ABR ~ MoonDancer Realty (MoonDancer Realty) about 5 years ago

The Holy Roman Catholic Priesthood is reserved for men only!!  There were no women present at The Last Supper!!  Not even the Blessed Virgin Mary!! If God Wanted there to be women priests, Our Lady would have been the first one!!  But, She was not present in the room during The Last Supper because Jesus, Our God, wanted only men to be Priests and for a reason!!  Only Priests---males---can represent Jesus in the Godhead in all Seven Sacraments of the Holy Roman Catholic Church!!  The Apostles were the first Priests with St. Peter as the first Pope.  

These women, who are called "Women Priests", are not Catholic!!  Stay away from them!!  They have no authority, by the Holy Roman Catholic Church, to do what they are doing!! They are destroying souls and they are displeasing to Almighty God!! They are going against God's Laws. If these women truly had some kind of religious vocation, they would be Sisters or Nuns.  They would join a convent because that's what convents are for.

If you cannot accept all of the teachings of The Holy Roman Catholic Church---then you are not Roman Catholic.  You have automatically excommunicated yourselves from the Holy Roman Catholic Church.  You all need to repent and come back to God!!

If you all would like to look at a really good Roman Catholic web site, please look here:  http://www.smwa.org/

I will definitely pray for you all!! 

Posted by Kristi about 5 years ago

Kristi:  First of all... thank you so much for your comment.  You seem more than a tad angry and agitated... so I hope you didn't have a heart attack after reading my post, and writing your comment.  Although I could have made this post a "private" post... I chose not to do that... so folks like yourself could be able to read it, and to comment.  So again... I am glad you are here.

You seem very comfortable in your bovine placidity.  The Roman Catholic Church encourages that.  It also appears that you have not done very much research as far as the "early church" is concerned.  There were women priests, deacons, and even women Bishops in the early years of the church.  It was only as time wore on, and the male hierarchy took strict control of "the Church," that women no longer were deacons, priests and Bishops.

In your comment, you stated that these Women Priests have no authority by (or from) the Holy Roman Catholic Church to do what they are doing.  That is true... but they don't need "permission."  If you believe in the idea of Apostolic Succession... then you would know that if a validly ordained Bishop of the Catholic Church chooses to ordain someone as a priest, or deacon, or bishop... that ordination is a valid one... and then becomes an indelible mark on that person's soul... never to be taken away. 

Regardless of what your opinion is, or even what the Pope's opinion is, although the ordination of these women is "illegal" in the eyes of the church... these women are still priests.  They have been duly ordained.

We as Catholics have a duty, actually a moral obligation, to "right" wrongs when we see them.  We are conscience-bound to do this.  Christ was a rebel.  When he was on earth he fought against the Pharisees and their self-righteous, self-serving regulations.  Although I cannot quote exactly where Christ said this... there is a place in the bible where he cautioned his followers to "make no more rules..." as far as those following his ministry.

Throughout the centuries, previous Catholic popes, and Church "Councils" have met and made/implemented some atrocious policies that have been very, very un-Christ-like. 

Kristi, I assume you believe in the Bible. 

If so, in Galatians 3:28... it is written "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

How the pope, and how you can choose to go against Christ's teaching this mystifies me.

"These women" are guided by The Holy Spirit.  How can you, or anyone say that The Holy Spirit has made a mistake in calling them to the Priesthood?  That sounds like blasphemy to me.

I invite you to continue discussing this with me on this post.  Please feel free to comment again.

Kristi... thank you for your prayers.  In one-ness with the Holy Spirit... my wish is that She will inspire both of us with Her Wisdom.  I will pray for you as well.  I look forward to hearing from you.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

NOTE:  I invite anyone who has commented on this post so far... to share their thoughts with both me, and with Kristi, regarding her above comment.  Thanks so much...

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

To whom it may concern,

They may "ordain" women all they want, but not only are their ordinations illicit and illegal, it goes against what our good Lord gave to us. During the Last Supper, He celebrated the Passover Meal and said "this is My Body" and "This is My Blood" and "Do this in Commemoration of Me" in the presence of His 12 Apostles only. There were no women there. He ordained men, he only chose men to be His apostles and he sent his 12 out to forgive sins and preach the good news. You will find no mention of women in any of these instances in the Gospels. Although I understand you and these women want to be equal to the men in the church, equal doesn't mean the same. In a marriage the man and the woman both bring seperate but equal parts to the whole which is what makes the marriage act and contract strictly between a man and a woman. Throughout the church's history we have been taught to call the Holy Catholic Church, mother church, this presents the church as a female, the consumation of the priesthood cannot be present with a woman priest, because she just doesn't fit. Just as marriage was created for a man and a woman, so too was the church created and the Mass to be celebrated by a man, a priest consecrated by the Bishop. This is what Christ ordained at the Last Supper and fully instituted at Pentacoste and this is the truth of the Tradition we hold today. Although woman do take part through the lay evangelization and through the consecrated life as nuns, there is no place for them in the part of celebrating the Mass. That is reserved for men.

I am a mother of 3 with my fourth on the way. A little boy, praise God, and I hope one day he will want to be a priest God willing the calling is there. I know my girls hold special and equal roles in the church because as women, they bear life, they are the first teachers of children and if they become nuns, they will be spiritual teachers someday. I feel sorry that the understanding of equal has to mean the same function, men and woman are equal but they bring different but equal parts to the whole. Us women do many things men will never be able to do, like bring life into the world, nurse and nurture an infant, lead by example and teach our children their first prayers. Please embrace the truth of feminity and feminism and realize women have very important and specific roles in this world, being a priest isn't one of them.

 

Pax Tecum to you, I hope I gave you food for thought.

With Love in Christ our Lord,

Kathleen

Posted by Kathleen about 5 years ago

Kristi is correct as the teachings of the Catholic Church, regardless of what any single Bishop desires to do in opposition to it, states that only MEN can receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
To confer this sacrament on any other person of the opposite sex makes the act invalid and the singular intention of the sacrament on the woman is a mute point.
No sacramental ordination takes place in opposition to the Churches teachings!!!!!  No matter how lovely the ceremony or the number of Bishops in attendance for it!!!!!
You can sugar coat the words, you can manipulate the history and you can shout it from the mountain tops that priestly ordination of woman is valid, but it does not make it so!!

Posted by Robert about 5 years ago
Although I will not take the aggressive tone Kristi has chosen to take, I must agree with most of what she has written. This entire thread has saddened me so much. So much disunity and rebellion within the church in the name of progress. Whose progress? Certainly not holy mother church. Whatever happened to obedience? Whatever happened to trust in the Lord? That certain individuals are guilty of heinous crimes does not imply that there is a concerted effort within the stewardship of the church towards criminality. Why such furor against the patriarchal? It is as Jesus designed it for He did not pray to the mother but to the Father and He is the Son and not the daughter and all of this supposed historical "evidence" of women priests and deacons, come on people, open your eyes and stop drinking the kool-aid. Ladies, you are choosing the path to damnation because you are choosing to guide yourselves instead of allowing yourselves to be guided. My fervent hope is that you will all come to see the truth within the church and the folly of your actions, and repent of said actions, for you are the direct cause of so many souls being lost forever. Does not that alone strike fear in your hearts? It should.
Posted by Gabriel about 5 years ago

(Christ spoke to Mary upon his resurection. She was the first person he appeared to and commanded her to go forth and spresd the good news. That sounds a lot like preaching to me. I feel nothing but contempt for religions who try to use their version of God to hold women down. Glad you went on that trip. You and all the others who attended brought all the validity to that ordination that was necessary. The Pope can go fly a kite.)

 

Actually what Christ said was "go and tell my brothers I have risen!" Not that we are to leave the preaching to them but there role is of priest, our role is faithful disciples, supporters, first teachers to children etc.... It is what it is, Mary Magdalen was not a priest, she was a disciple and good friend to our Lord but she was not an Apostle, she was not a priest. I hope this clears a few things up. The pope is in apostolic succession and we are called to obedience. Never in the history of the church will there ever be a valid ordination of woman, that was not what Christ ordained when He founded His Church.

 

Pax Tecum,

Kathleen 

Posted by Kathleen about 5 years ago

{This is weird. My brain was so frozen about writing about Rev Rougeux's Ordination... that I could NOT find a place to start. I wanted to write the "Perfect Post." So I tried to settle inside my lil brain about just what to say. I wanted to do it so perfectly that I ended up not even being able to start. Brain Freeze set in.

It was only in actually writing this post... which was initially going to be about asking just HOW anyone of you gets past "brain freeze..." that I ended up thawing my frozen brain... and was able to write about the Ordination.

Funny how that happens.}

 

It's amazing how the devil works isn't it!

 

 

Posted by Kate about 5 years ago

NOTE:  It appears to me that there's a very good chance that Kristi in #53 has called or emailed folks in her prayer group or rosary circle to read my heretical blog post and then to attempt to enlighten me by reciting their rote beliefs.  I am sure it is not just an accident that these five emails came within a 26 minute period this Sunday morning.

I welcome your sharing... and will respond to each of you.  Now, please understand that I can only respond so much... so try not to deluge me with a flood of these notes, ok ?

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Kathleen in #56:  Of course you gave me "food for thought."  I only wish that you would have actually thought through what you have read in my post... and the comments... instead of simply repeating back the dogma that you have been spoon-fed.

Yes, it may be true that there were only 12 "men" at the Last Supper, but there are also those who maintain that Mary Magdalene was there as well... sitting next to Jesus.  It is too bad that there is only that one picture of The Last Supper... instead of a video of it.  We might have seen more if there had been.

You mention that you understand that I, myself, and "these women" want to be equal to the men in the church.  My dear, that is the LAST thing that I want... and I am sure "those women" would say the same.  Firstly, we would not want to limit ourselves, and second... really, we want to be bring so much more to Christ's table than what the men who control the politics of the Church.

Yes, we have been taught that our church has been called "Mother Church."  And because of this "mother church"... only a man can experience the "consummation" of the priesthood.  You say that a woman priest cannot... because she just doesn't "fit."  So, it's all about sex, huh.  The "marital act."  Come on, now.

As far as "tradition" is concerned... I invite you to read the New Testament... word for word.  If you do that, you will discover places where women are referred to as apostles, disciples, deacons, priests and even bishops.  Perhaps this fact was one of the reasons that the Church for so long kept the Bible from being printed in any language other than Latin... so us regular folk could not read it.

Kathleen, I assume you believe in the Bible.  If so, in Galatians 3:28 it is written "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."  We are One in The Spirit, my good woman.

In a way I feel badly for you, and for your three daughters.  For some reason, you seem to see them, and yourself, as "less than a man."  I only hope for their sakes that before they come to fully believe this... that you back off a bit.

And no... equal does not mean "the same."  Yes, we are different.  Very different.  I thank God we are different.

By the way... in Genesis it is stated that God said... in "our" image we have made them.  Male and female we have made them.  It may be said either way... that God has no gender, or that God is both male and female.  Your choice.

Also... if you had read the entire post and all of the comments... you may recall that I referred to The Holy Spirit as a "She."  In the ancient Greek texts... The Holy Spirit was also called Chokhmah, or Wisdom.  In the ancient Greek, words are assigned genders, as is the case with many languages, the most familiar to us may be both Spanish and French.  Chokhmah was considered a word of the female gender... which was in congruence with the Holy Spirit being female.  The Holy Spirit is the Feminine Aspect of The Divine.

Just one more thing.  As was said in one of the comments above, referring to the priests' abuse of young boys, and the wide-spread cover-up that followed... shuffling pedophile priests to other parishes, and even to Rome, do you think for one minute that if the Pope, or the Bishops that were aware of this were Women... do you think for one minute they they would not have immediately "blown the whistle?"  Thank God men and women are not the same.

Pax Tecum to you, as well.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Robert in #57:  I understand what you are saying as far as the teachings of the Catholic Church... but what happens when those teachings are in direct contradiction with the writings in the Bible, and in direct contradiction with Galatians 3:28... and so much of what is found in so many of the ancient church writings.  How can you go against something as blatant as where it was written that Mary Magdalene was "the Apostle to The Apostles?"

If what the church teaches is wrong... it cries out to be contravened.  One does not need to sugar-coat the truth.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Gabriel in #58:  I am sorry you are saddened.  Finding out that what you believe may be false sometimes does that to a person.  Yes there is disunity and, to use your word, rebellion, in the church.  But... is that a bad thing?  What if the church is in error.  So much of what is coming out of Rome these days is political, and due to the deeply held prejudices of Joseph Ratzinger. 

I suggest you read a biography of him titled "The Rule of Benedict."  I have read it cover to cover... twice.  You might learn something.  On second thought... you seem so comfortable with what you believe... perhaps you should not shake your world by reading it.

What happened to obedience?  Sometimes it is more Christ-like not to obey.  Christ was not one to blindly obey the rules and beliefs of the Pharisees when He was on earth.  There was a reason for that.  Their rules were "ill advised."  Many of those with whom you disagree are simply following in Christ's example. 

You mentioned those "certain individuals guilty of heinous crimes."  Well, actually, there HAS been a "concerted effort" within the stewardship of the church towards criminality.  Not in them being pedophiles, too... but in their systematic and blatant cover-up of these monsters... simply so the Church would not look bad.

Do you think for one minute that if the Pope was one of any number of the Sisters under the current attack by the Pope... do you think that for one minute... that this Woman Pope would not have "blown the whistle" immediately?

But... that is digressing... and I don't want to do that... except for the fact that you brought it into this conversation.

Women Priests are not going down the road to damnation, but up the road to salvation.  To obey the church when what you urge to be obeyed is false teachings... to knowingly obey these false teachings, and to fail to act... would be a sin of omission.

There is no folly, there is no need of repentance... except on the part of the Pope, and of the Catholic Council of Bishops due to their false and prejudicial teachings.  It appears that another "re-formation" is due... and it is better that it come from within the church.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Kathleen in #59:  Hello, again.  The teacher in me would like to give you some homework.  I taught for nine years in the Catholic Schools... so it is not a new thing for me to give homework.

I would like you to read two Gospels.  The Gospel of Mary, and the Gospel of Philip.  I would also like you to read Pistis Sophia.  After you complete your homework... please return with your book reports, and then we can discuss them further.

If you read the Bible as accepted by the Council of Nicea in 325... short-changed as it is of many other very worthy Gospels and Epistles available at the time... you will find many, many references to women as deacons, priests and yes, even Bishops.

Unfortunately, you are but an echo of the current preachings of Joseph Ratzinger and his friends.  I give you a fourth book to read... The Rule of Benedict, by David Gibson.  I hope your reading it will "clear a few things up."  It shares many things about Joseph Ratzinger... Benedict XVI... that I am sure you are not aware of.

Peace be with you, as well.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Kate: in #60:  The devil.  Yes, it IS amazing how the devil works.  Ever since Benedict was elected Pope on April 19, 2005.  Actually, I don't really believe that Benedict XVI IS the devil, but merely under the influence of the devil.  To wreak such havoc within the church by pushing his backward-leading and error-laden doctrines and his false teachings... something is dreadfully wrong, somewhere.  Perhaps he IS under the influence of some other malevolent force... which you choose to call the devil.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Karen, 

"That is true . . . but they don't need "permission.  If you believe in the idea of Apostolic Succession . . . then you would know that if a validly ordained Bishop of the Catholic Church chooses to ordain someone as a priest, or deacon, or bishop . . . that ordination is a valid one, etc."  Only if it goes according to Catholic Church rules and teachings.  Women ordinations do not.  So, if a validly ordained Bishop goes against Catholic Church rules and teachings, including ordaining women priests, not only is that ordination invalid, but; the Bishop would also be facing excommunication from the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

" . . . what the Pope's opinion is, . . ."  The Pope does have his own, personal, opinion, just like everyone else.  But, the Pope is infallible when it comes to faith and morals!!  So, what you might think, and wish, to be His Holiness's personal opinion regarding the ordination of women priests, is actually Papal, and Catholic, infallibility---which will never change!!

If "these women are still priests", like you claim, then they would have to be called "Father", not "Reverand" or anything else.  All Catholic Priests are called "Father" and rightfully so because they are our spiritual fathers.  To call any Catholic priest any thing other than "Father" is anti-Catholic.  So, obviously, a woman could never be a called a "Father".  Since all Catholic Priests are called "Father" and you truly believe that these "women priests" are Catholic priests, then they must be called "Father" and, they obviously can't be!!

"We as Catholics have a duty, actually a moral obligation, to "right" wrongs when we see them."  Yes, we do.  We are to admonish the sinner.  This is exactly what I am trying to do here---admonish many of the posters, on here, who consider themselves Catholic and yet are anti-Catholic.  But, if you mean to "right" the wrongs in the Catholic Church, that is up to the Holy Father to do and that is exactly what His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI is in the process of doing and God bless him for it!!  We can't "right" the wrongs on our own---we can not go above the Holy Father.  But, what we can do, and what I do, is set a good example in the Holy Roman Catholic Church and be as traditional as possible in the Novus Ordo Mass.   It is my duty, and my moral obligation, to just that and also to admonish the sinner whenever I see fit. 

"Christ was a rebel.  When He was on earth, He Fought against the Pharissees and their self-righteous, self-serving regulations." Christ is God and His Anger is Holy!! 

"Throughout the centuries, previous Catholic Popes and Church "Counsils" have met and made/implemented some atrocious policies that have been very, very un-Christ-like".  Who's opinion is that??   It is the Holy Ghost Who has Guided these Popes and Church Counsils.

"How the pope, and how you can choose to go against Christ's Teaching this mystifies me."  We don't.   But, those who go against the Pope and the Catholic Church teachings go against Christ's Teaching.


"She"??  For The Holy Spirit??  The Holy Spirit, The Holy Ghost, is a "He" because He is part of the Triune God---God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

"Yes, it may be true that there were only 12 "men" at the Last Supper, but there are also those who maintain that Mary Magdelene was there as well . . . sitting next to Jesus." It IS true that there were only 12 men at the Last Supper.  That is all that is specified in the Bible and that is what we, as Catholics, are required to believe!! In the four volumes of "Mystical City of God" by Mother Mary of Agreda, who saw the entire Life of the Blessed Vigin Mary and wrote down what she saw and heard in those four volumes, the Blessed Virgin and the women who were with Her were in a separate room, and not the Upper Room, during the Last Supper. Although we are not required to believe that, we are required, as Catholics, to believe that the Blessed Virgin and the other women were not present in the Upper Room!!  If They were, that would have been mentioned in the Bible.  But, it wasn't because They weren't there!!

"You mention that you understand that I, myself, and "these women" want to be equal to the men in the church.  My dear, that is the LAST thing that I want . . . and I am sure that "those women" would say the same." Why else would you want to be priests if don't want equality??  It is ALL ABOUT equality, regardless if you believe it or not. Because, if it wasn't about equality, you would all totally understand that there is absolutely no way possible that women could ever be priests and you would also totally understand that the Religious Life of Sisters and Nuns are religious vocations for women and not the priesthood. 

About the "marital act" stuff and Holy Mother Church and the women priests just not fittin in, well, Holy Mother Church is the Bride of Christ and it wouldn't look good, nor sound good, and it wouldn't even be good for a woman priest to be married to Holy Mother Church, which is the Bride of Christ.  Catholic Priests are married to Holy Mother Church---it is a spiritual marriage, but a marriage none-the-less.

"As far as "tradition" is concerned . . . I invite you to read the New Testament . . . word for word.  If you do that, you will discover places where women are referred to as apostles, disciples, deacons, priests, and even bishops."  I have the traditional Catholic Bible---the Duoay-Rheims Bible---and no such things are in there.  You are probably referring to the Gospel according to St. Mary Magdalene that was written centuries later and contradict St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John's versions of the Gospel. Such a version of the Gospel is not in the New Testamen for a reason. 

"In Genesis it is stated that God Said . . . in "Our" Image we have made them.  Male and female We have made them.   It may be said either way . . . that God has no gender, or that God is both male and female."  We are made in the spiritual Image and Likeness of God---our souls, that is, and not our bodies. Being that God Is a Spirit, He has no specific gender.  But, there is no need for Him to have a gender.  Jesus told us to call God "Our Father" and for a reason.  Jesus also Said:  "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."  Right there is the male Image.  If we were to even consider, for one moment, God being a "She", then that would make the Most Blessed Virgin Mary a lesbian and She is not!!!  So, God IS our Father---He has a male Image. 

Posted by Kristi about 5 years ago

Pope Benedict says the ordination of a woman is both illegal AND invalid.  Ms. Stone disagrees.  Pope Benedict has the keys of Peter.  Ms. Stone does not.

Posted by South of Ft. Worth about 5 years ago

Kristi:  My response to your comment#67... part I:

The Catholic Church can make up any set of rules it wants to, and then use those same rules to "prove" their own point.  They have invented this rule that women cannot be priests, and from then on... they say that women cannot be priests because it goes against the rule that they invented that says women cannot be priests.  That is just plain silly.

Excommunication is also one of those silly rules.  Christ was a "rule breaker."  He would be proud of those who follow him if they, in good conscience, chose to go against a "rule" that was not only unjust, but not in keeping with the spirit of Christ's teaching.  Christ admonished his followers to not make new rules after His time on earth.  He knew that the egos of "men" would be such that they would come up with all kinds of nonsense that was not needed, nor was part of his teaching... nor part of the way he lived his life.  So basically, those who took part in these ordinations went against the rules that Christ warned his followers not to make.  Sounds to me like the Pope is the one who excommunicated himself.  What comes to mind is Christ saying "forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Papal infallibility:  What if what a certain pope... any pope... says... is wrong?  Then what?  Many times throughout the ages, throughout the centuries, certain Popes have issued rulings, or decreed, about certain things... and then years later, reversed those rulings.  Cases in point... St Joan of Arc, or Galileo.  The church had St Joan of Arc burned at the stake.  Later, they said... "ooops" and turned her into a Saint.  I am totally sure that this papal-invented decree against women being priests will someday be seen as going against the Spirit of Christ's teachings... and will be reversed.  I am guessing that you are a younger person... but that really doesn't matter.  What will your reaction be if the next pope... reverses this ultra-conservative stand?

By the way... before you wrote this comment... did you read ALL of the responses that I wrote to the comments your friends made when they all commented here over a 26 minute period?  You should.  Read the part about Galatians 3:28.  Also, to inform yourself so you can speak more knowledgeably, I direct you to my comment to Kathleen #65.  Please finish this "homework" before you comment again.  I will not accept any further comments fro you, Kristi, until you have shown that you care enough about complete knowledge of your faith by discussing those four books with me.

Kristi, your next point is just plain silly.  Women priests cannot be called "Father," so they cannot be priests.  Come on, now.  Catholic male priests are called Reverend.  They are also called Monsignor, Bishop, and even Pope.  All would apply to women priests as well.  Women priests would be called "Mother."

Note:   Kristi, I believe enough in what I have said here to attach my full name to this post.  I see that all of you making comments today and yesterday have only used your first names.

Could it be that you do not really believe enough in what you are saying to "witness to Christ" by giving your full name?  Why are you afraid?  Isn't that, in a way, similar to what Peter did when he denied Christ?

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

Who can receive the sacrament of Holy Orders?  "Only a baptized man validly recieves sacred ordination" by a "validly ordained bishop, i.e. those who are in the line of apostolic usccession, validly confer the three degrees of the sacrament of Holy Orders."  "The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return.  The Church regognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself.  For this reason the ordination of women is not possible."  

Furthermore, the dignity of women is not only admitted, it is exhaulted in the church starting with the Blessed Mother of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  She was kept spotless, Immaculate, preserved from every and all sin before and after birth.  She is the highest among all humankind, expect Jesus Christ Himself, our God, the Second person of the Holy Trinity.

The Holy Spirit never goes against Himself in the one true God.  So the Holy Spirit would never "call a woman to the priestly ministry", since Our Lord Himself chose only men.  If a woman "feels called" to ministry, it is not by the calling of the Holy Spirit.

St. Therese had a strong attraction to the ministry of the priesthood, as she wanted to be a great missionary; however, she denied herself pursing any such activity.  As you know, St. Therese has spent her heaven "raining down roses" on her devotees.  She has been called one only 33 great doctors of the church because of her little way.  I suspect her obedience is much of the reason why Our Lord chose to grant her prayer that she may spend her heaven doing good on earth.

Posted by Jackie about 5 years ago

Jackie:  I am so sorry, but starting with your comment #70... if you do not identify yourself, including first and last names... and an email address... I don't see the fairness in my answering you.  Everyone else commenting on this post other than you and your group of friends that Kristi called or emailed... have given their full names, and are available to be emailed.

Also... please read all of my answers to your friends who have commented over the last two days for answers to your questions... as you all are pretty much saying the same things, over and over.

I am glad for you that you find peace in your extreme beliefs.  I sincerely am.  I am also curious as to what church you belong to... and by that I mean the exact parish and city.  I am guessing it is some sort of extreme evangelical Catholic parish... and not a part of any mainstream Catholic parish.

By the way... you are incorrect in your claim that the priests are "united" with what you call the "college of bishops" as far as not recognizing women priests.  There are many orgainzations of regular ol' current Catholic priests... some of which have hundreds and hundreds of members... who agree that women should be able to be ordained.

Remember... you must provide your first and last names, and an email address... or I will not respond.  If you do, I will be most happy to debate with you. 

Have a wonderful week.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

It is your choice whether to answer or not and it is my choice not to give any personal information, although I did include my e-mail address.  If people are giving you the same comments over and over again it is not that they know each other but it is because the comments are the truth which was handed down from the apostles.  What I indicated is directly out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church about ordination (CCC 1577).  The Catholic Church teaches nothing but the truth.  There are no extremes in the Catholic Church or Catholic Doctrine.  There are only lies and manipulations of people outside of the church meant to  mislead people.  If there are any priests or groups of people which include priest that are promoting the ordination of women then they are very disobedient to the church.  They therefore are not in good standing because the church has very, very clearly taught this truth since the time of the apostles.  I believe that you are lying about there being hundreds and hundreds of priests that would join in such a schism, which is a mortal sin.  

Yes, I am a member of a regular mainstream Catholic parish which is not even the slightest bit evangelical; however, I am familiar with the evangelistic movements of various sorts throughout the church and have the utmost respect for those individuals because they are not prideful or arrogent, nor or they minutely inclined in as much as I can see toward disobedience.  

Thank you for your earnest response.  May the good Lord bless you and keep you in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ.

Posted by Jackie about 5 years ago

Jackie:  For you to point to the Catechism of the Catholic Church item #1557 as justification for the Church going against the Holy Spirit's just calling of women to the priesthood is just plain wrong.  The Church wrote it's own rules, and then points to them as justification for their un-Christ-like behaviour.

As far as the priests organization... The Association of U.S. Catholic Priests (your kind of priests, all males) is on record as being supportive of a group of Catholic Sisters... the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, and against the Church's misguided policy of denying women from being able to answer the call of the Holy Spirit. 

The group started out with 240 priests as members last year, and is now up to over 700 male Catholic priests as members.  Here is a link to that in the National Catholic Reporter newspaper.  Association of U.S. priests adopts resolution to support LCWR | National Catholic Reporter. Jackie, I do not make up stuff like this, ok?

As far as their disagreeing with Benedict being morally wrong... that is incorrect.  They would be morally wrong if the DIDN'T disagree with him.

They genuinely believe that the rule against women becoming priests is morally wrong, and they are bound by their consciences to BREAK that rule. 

Even Benedict himself has said that if a Catholic believes that a rule or a law is wrong, that they, Catholics, have a moral obligation to break that rule or law.  So... in this case, they are only following what Benedict himself has said that Catholics should do.  Benedict cannot have it both ways!

The priest's group is also on record as being fully supportive of the LCRW... the Leadership Conference of Religious Women... the Sisters group that represents over 80% of the nuns in the United States... and is against what the Pope is trying to do to them. 

He is trying to come down upon them like a ton of bricks.  The man is just wrong.  He is 84 years old, and honestly, and this is said in a caring way, I really do believe he is mentally ill.

The only ones who are misleading the faithful... are the Pope and his ultra-conservative followers... his buddy-priests that he has appointed to high posts in the Church.  Benedict needs to retire and go back to Germany.  Perhaps he has been more affected than anyone could have imagined by all of the time he was a member of that Nazi youth group he belonged to as a teenager.  Did you know about that group?  Google it... it's true.

I am not lying to you.  There is no sense to that.  All I am trying to do is help you realize how mis-guided you are in your swallowing whole all of the erroneous teachings that are being thrown at you by the ultra-conservatives.  I know you are trying to do what you believe is right, but I also believe you are being led astray by those church leaders you have put your faith in.  I feel badly for you.

I suggest you read Vatican II... the Church Council that took place over several years in 1968.  Perhaps then you will realize, if only to a small extent, how the reforms of Vatican II are being turned upside-down by Benedict.  He has no idea of the harm he is doing to the Church he says he loves.

I also suggest you read The Rule of Benedict, by David Gibson.  It will open your eyes to more of the inner self that makes up Joseph Ratzinger... aka Benedict XVI.

And... you are very welcome.  Peace be with you.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

And are these priests inducted without knowledge or consent?  I see on the group's resolutions that all U.S. Bishops are being chartered.  Have they all given their consent?

Posted by jackie about 5 years ago

God does not work against Himself so he would never call a woman to the priesthood because Jesus never did.

 

Posted by Anonymous about 5 years ago

We are bound to break with something that is prescribed if it is sinful.  There is nothing that the church teaches that is sinful.  Therefore, disobeying is a very grave sin.

Posted by Anonymous about 5 years ago

No matter what the physical or mental health of the pope, He is still fully pope and still has all of the power and capacity until the Holy Catholic Church designates otherwise.

Posted by Anonymous about 5 years ago

What you are saying in calling anyone ultra-conservative is that they are practicing, faithful, obedient, and loyal Roman Catholics to the pope and all the church teaches.  Thank you, that is a huge compliment!

Posted by mary about 5 years ago

Vatican II was a great council.  Praise God!!  It is wonderful!

Wait, I am not at all sure about that book and that author, however, if you are suggesting the true Rule of St. Benedict, WHAT?  Are you an ultra-conservative???  

Posted by mary about 5 years ago

Jackie and Mary and whomever the nameless one is:  I am going to put all of your one-line comments together from your comments #74 to #79... and then answer each one.  It makes it all much easier to read.

74:  And are these priests inducted without knowledge or consent?  I see on the group's resolutions that all U.S. Bishops are being chartered.  Have they all given their consent?  by Jackie.

These priests have formed this organization of their own free will.  There are duly ordained Catholic priests who fee that the Catholic Church is going in the wrong direction, and they are brave enough to go out on a limb and do something about it.  I am sure they also feel that with over 700 of them FREELY joining that the Pope would not dare throw them out of the priesthood.  That would be a truly dumb thing for the pope to do, but, then again, he has done some pretty ill-advised things over the past seven years.

I think you were also asking if all of the Bishops have given their consent to the priests join for them to join the Association of U.S. Catholic Priests?  I totally doubt that very many Bishops gave their consent to these brave priests.  So yes, we have a very large group of Catholic male priests disagreeing with the errant Bishops and the equally-errant Pope.

75:  God does not work against Himself so he would never call a woman to the priesthood because Jesus never did.  (no name)

And you know this how?  Have you personally interview God the Father?  What did He say?  Have you personally interviewed Jesus?  What did He say?  And have you personally interviewed the Holy Spirit?  And what did She say?

I am sorry, but your reasoning on this one just does not make any sense.  By the way... there already HAVE been women priests during the early days of the church between the time after Christ's Resurrection until just before the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.  Read your bible... it's in there.  It is also in many of the ancient texts... many of which were written in Greek and Aramaic.

76:  We are bound to break with something that is prescribed if it is sinful.  There is nothing that the church teaches that is sinful.  Therefore, disobeying is a very grave sin.  (no name)

I don't know if I would call the Church and Benedict denying the validity of the Holy Spirit calling these women to a priestly vocation "sinful"... or, maybe it is.  If the Holy Spirit is God, and part of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit can call whomever is deemed righteous enough to the priesthood.  Are you going to call the Holy Spirit less that All-Powerful?

77:  No matter what the physical or mental health of the pope, He is still fully pope and still has all of the power and capacity until the Holy Catholic Church designates otherwise.  (no name)

This makes no sense, either.  If the mandatory retirement age for Cardinals is 80... and the Pope is 84... he should have gone off to his Palace in Castel Gandolfo four years ago.  In many ways, both physically, mentally and psychologically, he is unfit to be Pope.  His behaviour is scandalous... and creating scandal, in itself, is a sin.

78:  What you are saying in calling anyone ultra-conservative is that they are practicing, faithful, obedient, and loyal Roman Catholics to the pope and all the church teaches.  Thank you, that is a huge compliment!  (Mary)

Being blindly "faithful" and being blindly "obedient" makes you a sheep.  How can you possibly believe and obey some of the nonsensical things that come out of Rome, and out of New York from Cardinal Dolan and his hostile takeover of the Catholic Conference of Bishops.  That, as well, is scandalous... and so was the way he arranged to be elected about a year ago.  If Dolan isn't careful, all of his political activities are going to lead to the Church losing their IRS tax-exempt status.  It is either a church, or a political organization... it cannot be both.  I, for one, am tired of having the citizens of this country PAY higher taxes to support Dolan's political activities.

79:  Vatican II was a great council.  Praise God!!  It is wonderful!

Wait, I am not at all sure about that book and that author, however, if you are suggesting the true Rule of St. Benedict, WHAT?  Are you an ultra-conservative???

Yes, Vatican II was a great Council.  It is/was wonderful.  But... Benedict, day by day, is dismantling so many of the reforms that Vatican II instituted.

Now... the book.  The Rule of Benedict by David Gibson is NOT the same as what you are referring to.  It is a biography of the life of Joseph Ratzinger... Pope Benedict XVI.  It traces his life from his childhood through his teen years (and his membership in a Nazi youth group in Germany), his years as a priest in Germany, and his eventual rise to becoming Pope.  I know it is confusing, but it is NOT about "The Rule of St Benedict" who lived from the year 480 to 543.

Am I ultra-conservative?  Good Grief! No.  I am a Nice Catholic Girl from Cleveland.  By the way... when I say "conservative, I mean "backward-looking."

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

The three persons are ONE God and ONE God cannot go against Himself.  When we "look at Jesus, we look at the Father" and the Spirit is "HIS Spirit".  I do not need to do an interview.  

It is clear that any priest that is in membership of that group is clearly disobedient, unfaithful, and NOT Roman Catholic and therefore should not be followed.

Yes, we are sheep and we do have a Shephard on earth and his name is Pope Benedict.  No matter what his age, he is our VALID pope.  Nowdays, priests are allowed to continue acting when their health and mental facilities are good.  Obviously, Pope Benedict is doing a great job.

Thanks for your responses to everyone!

 

God bless you with an obedient and docile spirit to the pope, the bishops in union with him,  and all the teachings of the church, and grant you sainthood, in Jesus' holy name.  Amen.  +++

Posted by mary about 5 years ago

Mary:  I really wish you would respond to what I have to say... as thoroughly as I have responded to you.  I take what you and your friends have said, and actually think about it before I answer... rather than just shovel out pre-determined answers.  I would love it if you, and your friends, would do the same.

You said:  The three persons are ONE God and ONE God cannot go against Himself.  When we "look at Jesus, we look at the Father" and the Spirit is "HIS Spirit".  I do not need to do an interview.  

What I was meaning as far as the "interview" part... was that I was asking a question about how in the world do YOU dare to put yourself on the same level as each of the three persons in the Trinity... and know their omniscient and infinite minds?  You have not any right, nor do you have any reason, to assume what is in the Mind of The Holy Spirit as far as who would receive a genuine, valid calling to the priesthood.  Are you so blasphemous that you put yourself on the same level as the Mind, and the Intent, of the Holy Spirit?

You said:  It is clear that any priest that is in membership of that group is clearly disobedient, unfaithful, and NOT Roman Catholic and therefore should not be followed.

Perhaps any of those priests might be considered disobedient... but if so... thank GOD for that.  They are choosing to follow their well-formed consciences in that they believe what is being ordered by the Pope and his Bishops is wrong.  They are doing what they are doing to SHOW their faith in God, and in Jesus Christ, and NOT in the Pope.  There is a difference, you know.

There were also those who thought that Christ Himself was clearly disobedient in his time... so much so that they crucified him for it.

You said:  Yes, we are sheep and we do have a Shephard on earth and his name is Pope Benedict.  No matter what his age, he is our VALID pope.  Nowdays, priests are allowed to continue acting when their health and mental facilities are good.  Obviously, Pope Benedict is doing a great job.

I don't want to sound mean, but yes, you and your friends do sound like sheep.  Blindly following your "shepherd..." the Pope. 

I am sorry, but this, to me and my well-formed, Jesuit-educated conscience, is clearly a case of the blind following the blind.  As my mother used to ask me... "Karen, if so-and-so jumped off a cliff, would you?  Well... Benedict is trying to lead his entire church toward that cliff.  Some people see that, and disagree.  Others don't see that, and follow.  I feel badly for you if you cannot see that.

By the way... I have my education from the Ursuline Sisters in elementary school, the Ursuline Sisters and the Marianist Brothers and Priests in high school, and the Jesuit Priests and Brothers in college, in both undergraduate and Graduate School at John Carroll University.  Twenty years of Catholic education... followed by nine years of my teaching in the Catholic Schools, and being active in my Parish Liturgy Ministry. 

Seriously, now... where did you get all of YOUR Catholic education from?  I would like an answer, if you would be so kind as to share.

John Carroll, by the way, was the very first Bishop in the United States... way back when.

You said:  Thanks for your responses to everyone!

You are most welcome!  Please, if you again would be so kind... I would just love to have you comment on what I have said as thoroughly to me, as I have responded to you.  Fair... is fair.

You said:  God bless you with an obedient and docile spirit to the pope, the bishops in union with him,  and all the teachings of the church, and grant you sainthood, in Jesus' holy name.  Amen.  +++

Mary, I will not simply be obedient to teachings I know in my heart and my conscience, and from all of the reading, studying and coursework I have done... to be wrong, or wrong-spirited.  Docile?  Never.  I also have my well-formed and well-educated conscience to help me decide when certain "teachings"... if you want to call them "teachings"... are true enough to the Spirit of Christ... to be followed.

The Pope, and way, way too many of his Bishops have become more Politicians than people of God.  They need to decide which one they really are.   Both... will not work.

And yes, as a Nice Catholic Girl from Cleveland, I hope to eventually achieve sainthood, as well.

Peace be with you, as well.

Posted by Karen Anne Stone, Fort Worth Real Estate (New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County) about 5 years ago

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